everybody wants an

[dimeplayersonly]

i want to hear from the "sharp guys"

i hear all the time about all the books just copying lines from CRIS and OLY.....none of them post "original" numbers blah, blah, blah.....

my question to you guys always saying this...whats an original number?????

give me an example....

i mean if if CRIS opens up with the jets -7
should BOOK #6 put up 6'????? yeah thats original enough....yeah right...

in this business the margin of error is minimal, otherwise your finished...

the opening numbers are not posted on whims, or guessing, or ouji boards or dogs that count by barking........if CRIS post a 5 on a game..........guess what? thats PROBABLY what it should be............

[Judge Wapner]

Dime,I am using Celtics -12,original enough?

[Walk of Life]

Hate to disagree Judge. You're off by ½ a point.

[dimeplayersonly]

forgot to tell you thats why i was getting all spurs yesterday..........catching +10 too much to pass up..........lol

[The General]

Not a sharp guy but i can offer an opinion.

When a book has linemakers, there seems to be a variance of method i think. One oddsmaker may decide to use a certain criteria over another, therefore the difference in lines i believe. As for the need to have an employeed oddsmaker, i do not see the need if you can clone the top linesmakers. Seems as it is a bad move for these books to try and provide unique lines as it only allows the heavy hitters to key in on scalps & middles. I see no problem with cloning lines at all. If this is what it takes for a book to avoid getting pounded & have financial troubles, then let em clone. Does not matter to the average gamblers.

[THE SHRINK]

General,

I respectfully disagree with you. The sharpies I know can KILL a book that simply clones their lines from other sports books on the Don Best feed...

The ART of bookmaking these days requires a good sports book to have a good linesmaker, not a clone...

I can go more into it, but then I would be giving away some of my arsenal, and I will not!

Suffice to say that a clone book is much more likely to get fooled by a "false move" than someone like a Skippy, Lenny, Mac or a Spiros.. http://theprescription.infopop.net/infopop/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

[Walk of Life]

General:

Clone books have gotten killed by the same books they're cloning from. The best chance a book has to survive this speculation is having somebody who actually knows the value of a line.

Clone books are doomed. They're in the lowest step of the food chain in this industry.

Shrink:

You forgot to mention Fernando.

[The General]

You are correct SHRINK, but i would referance my reply only if the books who clone would also wait until the line has settled for a bit before posting a number. If a shop clones as soon as the number is put up, then they will get pounded for sure. Hopefully a book would use some common sense as well, but we know many do not http://theprescription.infopop.net/infopop/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

Is that far off?

Thanks

[dimeplayersonly]

SHRINK........let me clarify......i am referring to "opening" numbers.......not adjusting numbers to coincide with the other books just because they change thiers...


moving numbers on air.........different topic...to be discussed at a later time.....lol

[THE SHRINK]

Walk of Life,

I didn't forget to mention Fernando because I didn't want to, lol...

General,

A clone book can survive ONLY if all they book is "square action" but in this environment, that's not likely to happen...

There is so much more to bookmaking than meets the eye....

And I don't claim to know half of it either...

THE SHRINK

[The General]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR> There is so much more to bookmaking than meets the eye.... <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

No doubt in my mind SHRINK. I am seeking to learn much of that & your forum is assisting me.

Thanks

[THE SHRINK]

Dimesplayer,

Since you brought up the topic of an "opening number"...

Question:

Do you know how most of the "elite" bookmakers I know of evaluate how good their opening number was?

Answer:

By how close it ends up being to the closing number...

[Buzzsaw]

Shrink,
I disagree with you that a book can or will likely get killed with cloned numbers implying that the safer book has their own original numbers.

A combination of cloned numbers with a goal of balanced action is the safest model. Not an "opinion" to attract heavy imbalances ala AcesGold.

[Judge Wapner]

It seems to me that Sports Market used a lot of original numbers.Anyone know how they are doing these days?

[THE SHRINK]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Buzzsaw:
Shrink,
I disagree with you that a book can or will likely get killed with cloned numbers implying that the safer book has their own original numbers.

A combination of cloned numbers with a goal of balanced action is the safest model. Not an "opinion" to attract heavy imbalances ala AcesGold.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Buzzsaw,

I never said that. Please don't twist my words around on this particular topic..

Your second paragraph sounds better in THEORY, but while I agree with your second sentence, I disagree with your first one...

"A combination of cloned numbers with a goal of balanced action is the safest model."

This is very naiive of you and idealistic to think this can ever happen in the long run. No book I know of has balanced action!

THE SHRINK

[Judge Wapner]

Nor do I want balanced action.I want lopsided square action.

[SENDITIN]

Judge did have the Celtics minus 12 tonight, but when I tried to put the Nets in, I was told I could only play the Celtics. Now that's original.

[Judge Wapner]

LOL.

[max1234]

All of this talk about "cloning" and such is wearing my ass out. The only ones concerned about are the scalpers, middlers and syndicate guys. The average bettor is interested in placing a wager or two for entertainment. That's it. Just what % of bettors actually make a living wagering? Anyone??? I would say less than 1%. So why should an entire industry be worried about pissing off such a small % of their business? They shouldn't.

[Judge Wapner]

Max,agreed.

[jjgold]

Judge copies Greeks numbers

[jjgold]

But I love The Judge, I just wish he would make his own lines.

[Buzzsaw]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR> The sharpies I know can KILL a book that simply clones their lines from other sports books on the Don Best feed. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>I didn't think I was twisting the words.. If sharp players can kill clone lines then why are they always bitching about them?

[SPIVE]

I personally don't give a hoot what numbers/odds BM's wish to serve up...just honor what's posted...if the price is right I'll buy, if not, I'll pass.


Simple Game. http://theprescription.infopop.net/infopop/emoticons/icon_cool.gif

[dimeplayersonly]

MAX..........ditto i agree..


the reason i started this thread was to hear from my favorite "pseudo" bookmakers...

jjgold
spive


was dissapointed in their replies though.................

[The General]

Good thread Dime.

Appreciate it

[jjgold]

Good thread Dime

The Judge does not want my action

[max1234]

Judge and Dime,

I've been around this site for a couple of years now and that includes lurking across the street. All I hear is the same few screaming over and over about clone lines and saying no one's a bookmaker anymore. If it's that f*cking easy then why don't they take some cash, move south, open up and bust the world? There's one major factor that's changed bookmaking in the last 5 years. THE INTERNET. That tool that allows them to try to scalp and middle while sitting watching DB is the same tool that's changed everything. But they want it both ways. They'd like to watch DB and see 3pt middles on Sunday. Who wouldn't? It's like they think they're rocket scientists and the rest of the world is inhabited by morons.

[jjgold]

maxy good post

Cris
grande
jazz
pinnacle
carib
bowmans
greek
delmar
ny post

not clone lines, probably missing a few others

[David Matthews]

I think anyone with a bankroll can book bets successfully by having Don Best and limiting bets to $1,000 max. You won't get any real players with the low limits.

I respect the job of the linesmaker, but I don't think it's really necessary these days.

By the way, another "non-clone" book would be Stardust. They don't take any action though.

David

[jjgold]

Did not think of stardust good job Dave

[David Matthews]

By the way, there is a lot more to running a sports book than booking bets. There is marketing, avoiding people opening 4 or 5 accounts under different names, customer service, and probably a whole world of things I don't know.

My comments above are only concerning setting the line where you take action.

I do think the really sharp places like Pinnacle, and Olympic can make more money by having sharper lines, but the Don Best "average" line is probably good enough for most as long as you don't take big action.

David

[Judge Wapner]

JJ,actually I give more credence to Cris' and Grande's #'s than to Spiro's.I only use Don Best as a guide.I book to my action.

[jjgold]

Good Job Judge.

I hear Delmar is kind of unique as is Carib

[Judge Wapner]

Delmar is one of the best.The main man knows his shit.

[cecil]

I agree with shrink that cloning numbers is not the way to go.

From a players perspective, I don't care which side the number is, if it sharp or square, but if you have the same number I can get at any other shop everytime, why would I play with you???

[max1234]

Cecil,

Good pt. That's why customer svc, software, quick pay and marketing are so important.

[Heywood Jablome]

cecil, you are right about players not having any use for clone numbers, but now lots of books are taking the attitude that if you are looking for an extra 1/2 point or God forbid a whole point better than the clone line, then THEY do not want to deal with YOU because you must be a wiseguy or something. It is getting quite pathetic out there. And by the way, that spinning ball is starting to hypnotize me.

[dimeplayersonly]

DAVID MATHEWS.........im glad you stated "that a person can book successfully using d.b. and limiting action to a 1k"

that should start a stampede of people opening new books, which in no time are sure to go belly-up.........


some people fantasize about sex........i fantasize about what you just said... some guys starting a book with deep pockets, using don best...hell i dont need a dime limit........nickle will be fine....

seriously, though using dbs2k would keep the lines sharp,
but not having a clue on how to work the book would get you into trouble with even the squarest book, if your not careful...

btw...i have seen guys go through 6 figures on dime limits....both their way and the books.. in no time at all..

[TTinCO]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by max1234:
Cecil,

Good pt. That's why customer svc, software, quick pay and marketing are so important.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Max, you forgot the single most important(and most damaging one for the books)....the bonus.

[The General]

The majority of gamblers do not care if the numbers are cloned or not i believe. I think if one posts up, likes the CS, & software, they will stay even if posted "we clone" on the website. http://therx.infopop.cc/infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

[max1234]

TTinCo,

You are correct, I left that point off.

General,

Exactly what I said. Most gamblers just want to know the line, make their play and then watch the game.

[lander]

The majority of gamblers do not care if the numbers are cloned or not i believe. I think if one posts up, likes the CS, & software, they will stay even if posted "we clone" on the website.

I disagree, but an even bigger problem with this theory is that "new" shops would have virtually ZERO chance of getting customers ...
if everybook had the same events and prices then I imagine that every player would stick with 1 book that they feel comfortable with. We'd be down to a handful of books with no pressure to offer low vig, incentives, or unique props ...
... as a player I'm all for these things.

[wantitall4moi]

It isn't rocket science, it is gambling, cloned numbers or original numbers they are never right all the time.

These books all feed off each other, I have said it before. That allows them to gamble a lot more as well, something they need to do to survive.

Offshore books aren't like Vegas books with hotel, resorts, and multibillion dollar corporatiopns behind them. They are for the most part solely relying on sports betting to survive. To tell you the truth I don't know how they do it. Winning more than they lose when they post opinonated numbers is the most logical answer. Also being able to rely on other books to help take away the burden is another.

In the more popular sports of football you may find a full one point spread between all the books out there. I made this argument before. Say there are 1000 books, 330 might have -4, 330 might have -4.5, and 340 might have -5. So while you can shop around and get a better line depending on if you like the dog or fave, the books aren't opening themselves up to any major problems.

In bases where the action is much less you can find favorable odds both ways, but a lot less than in years past, and getting worse all the time. If you take leads you will get a few here and there, but in terms of simultaneous stuff it is few and far between. But for the most part by game time most joints are within a nickle of each other, even those running 20 cent lines.

But since there are so many books out there, they aren't really getting buried one way or the other. Obviously some books do more business than others, but those books can also afford to gamble a little more. Their handle is such that they can eat a few losses here and there, and they also get enough wins to help out.

Being a bookie isn't as tough as people think. All you need to do is be able to balance action, and if you are small time and get buried one way, the ability to lay it off somewhere else.

I know all you guys "in the business" scoff at this and have the condescending attitude. But it is a business, and anyone with business sense and a little experience could do it.

All you need is some good clientele, and some capital, and be able to add and subtract. This whole cloak and dagger, it takes a genius to be a bookie stuff is crap. If it were so hard to do there wouldn't be shops popping up all over the place,and they wouldn't stay in business as long as they do.

I would bet my ass that most of these places start up with less than 50K in capital and float the post ups money. I am talking the rinky dink joints that people tout every so often. But they some how make it. Look at the list of books, I am not sure there are 1000, but there are over 750 for sure, but you only here about 20-25 on a regular basis, but the others exist, and they somehow survive.

I know this got a little off topic, but there are really no "original" lines anymore. The market is fixed by the elite books, and the other smaller places simply have to fall in line. But the irony is these bigger books actually rely on the smaller places.

If these smaller places didn't exist you would see a lot more line movements, and a lot more spots to middle and hedge. Because there would be fewer books taking action so they would have to be a lot more careful with the numbers they posted, and how and when they move them.

Books that put up numbers that are slightly off are considered pioneers, Pinnacle come to mind. Who is to say they aren't the book gambling the most? Who is to say they are the only book NOT gambling? They may be the only book putting up a true number, while the other books have hedged a little to gamble somewhat.

When you don't know the total amount of money in the whole pool, then it is impossible to say which statement is more accurate.

Worrying about all this doesn't do any good. It is like going to the gas pump and still seeing gas at 170 a gallon and wondering why it hasn't dropped more. You need gas, you pay the price, you want to gamble you take the number they give you. And sometimes cheaper isn't always better. If a book has outrageous lines they are either gambling way too much, or looking to attract suckers (business), or they have limits so low it is a waste of time playing with them. Just like cheap gas, your car knocks, and pings, and gets horrible mileage.

Play where you get paid, play where you find the best number, and play where you like. All the other stuff takes care of itself.

[wilheim]

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