Forum: Horse Racing Forum - Horse Handicapping Central. Grab your racing form and share some winners. Down the stretch they come.

Thread: 2018 Kentucky Derby Thoughts

Page 1 of 5 12345 LastLast
  1. #1 2018 Kentucky Derby Thoughts 
    RX Senior elevenblack301's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2010
    Location
    Ohio
    Posts
    1,420
    Another year, another great race only a few weeks away............

    Thought I would list my top ten at this time and see how it changes, so here we go,

    1.) Justify
    2.) Mendelssohn
    3.) Audible
    4.) Bolt D'Oro
    5.) Magnum Moon
    6.) Enticed
    7.) Good magic
    8.) Vino Rosso
    9.) Quip
    10.) Flameaway

    Stay healthy everyone, and be well.............
    ......So do all who live to see such times, but that is not for them to decide.
    ............All we have to decide is what to do with the time that is given us"
    Reply With Quote  
     

  2. #2  
    RX Senior
    Join Date
    Nov 2016
    Location
    Florida
    Posts
    1,797
    Here’s my final Derby 6-pack:

    1-Audible 2-Magnum Moon 3-Quip 4-Bolt D’Oro 5-Mendelssohn 6-Justify
    Reply With Quote  
     

  3. #3  
    RX Wizard
    Join Date
    Sep 2007
    Location
    indiana
    Posts
    5,181
    Welcome back 11black. Always enjoy your Derby thread every year. For me, about the only good thing on this site anymore. Looks like a pretty good group of 3 year olds with no real standout. Really looking forward to next weeks Arkansas Derby. Magnum Moon, Quip and Solomini are all horses I like and anxious to see how each of them run next week. I thought Good Magic ran a very good race in the Blue Grass and will move forward in his 3rd start of year. Justify looked ok but if Future pool 4 is any indication and he is the favorite, I won’t play him to win at short price. Audible has looked very good also. I thought the best 3 year old so far was McKinzie, but the injury put an end to his chances.
    Reply With Quote  
     

  4. #4  
    RX Senior skoda's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2004
    Location
    Keystone State
    Posts
    3,559
    My $30 investment..... Tri-boxed

    If the stars line-up. The 1st Saturday in May.... 5th in 2018 before and after draw I'll try

    2-3-4-6-13
    for 50 cents. If
    "Vino Rosso
    " # isn't included <<<< I'll do 6 TBX for $60 and if a grey is running I'll play $10 ATB on the Grey. Who the best on paper isn't always in the winners circle.

    I gave up buying a program years ago. Unless you are putting 10,000 to win on the best you should play the rest and hope for the best to lose.....


    All hail American Pharoah! The much-ballyhooed, hard-charging colt came away with a win in the 141st Kentucky Derby, narrowly beating out nearest runners-up Firing Line and Dortmund to claim a first-place finish. In other words, it happened the way the odds said it would: the favored American Pharoah made good on the confidence of all those folks who placed bets on him, in front of a record-high television audience. But that isn't as common as you might expect.

    How often does the favorite win the Kentucky Derby, would you reckon?


    Obviously, for a race with as long a history as the Derby's (the first race was held back in 1875), you're dealing with a lot of numbers. But luckily, there are records on this: 49 out of the 141 Kentucky Derbys have been won by the favorite, just over one-third of the time.


    Always a good read eleven 301
    Reply With Quote  
     

  5. #5  
    RX Senior elevenblack301's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2010
    Location
    Ohio
    Posts
    1,420
    Quote Originally Posted by Baldheadedprick View Post
    Here’s my final Derby 6-pack:

    1-Audible 2-Magnum Moon 3-Quip 4-Bolt D’Oro 5-Mendelssohn 6-Justify
    A very nice looking 6-pack.................could be an exotic box extravaganza..............like them all....................but what Longshot might surprise us come the first Saturday in May ?
    ......So do all who live to see such times, but that is not for them to decide.
    ............All we have to decide is what to do with the time that is given us"
    Reply With Quote  
     

  6. #6  
    RX Senior elevenblack301's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2010
    Location
    Ohio
    Posts
    1,420
    Quote Originally Posted by wabashwonders View Post
    Welcome back 11black. Always enjoy your Derby thread every year. For me, about the only good thing on this site anymore. Looks like a pretty good group of 3 year olds with no real standout. Really looking forward to next weeks Arkansas Derby. Magnum Moon, Quip and Solomini are all horses I like and anxious to see how each of them run next week. I thought Good Magic ran a very good race in the Blue Grass and will move forward in his 3rd start of year. Justify looked ok but if Future pool 4 is any indication and he is the favorite, I won’t play him to win at short price. Audible has looked very good also. I thought the best 3 year old so far was McKinzie, but the injury put an end to his chances.
    wabash,

    how are you my friend................always look forward to this time of year..........

    funny you mentioned McKinzie, he also was my top selection..............just an amazing horse, should see much out of him this summer........

    will be posting some stats and such next week..................always only for entertainment purposes though................
    ......So do all who live to see such times, but that is not for them to decide.
    ............All we have to decide is what to do with the time that is given us"
    Reply With Quote  
     

  7. #7  
    RX Senior elevenblack301's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2010
    Location
    Ohio
    Posts
    1,420
    Quote Originally Posted by skoda View Post
    My $30 investment..... Tri-boxed

    If the stars line-up. The 1st Saturday in May.... 5th in 2018 before and after draw I'll try

    2-3-4-6-13
    for 50 cents. If
    "Vino Rosso
    " # isn't included <<<< I'll do 6 TBX for $60 and if a grey is running I'll play $10 ATB on the Grey. Who the best on paper isn't always in the winners circle.

    I gave up buying a program years ago. Unless you are putting 10,000 to win on the best you should play the rest and hope for the best to lose.....


    All hail American Pharoah! The much-ballyhooed, hard-charging colt came away with a win in the 141st Kentucky Derby, narrowly beating out nearest runners-up Firing Line and Dortmund to claim a first-place finish. In other words, it happened the way the odds said it would: the favored American Pharoah made good on the confidence of all those folks who placed bets on him, in front of a record-high television audience. But that isn't as common as you might expect.

    How often does the favorite win the Kentucky Derby, would you reckon?


    Obviously, for a race with as long a history as the Derby's (the first race was held back in 1875), you're dealing with a lot of numbers. But luckily, there are records on this: 49 out of the 141 Kentucky Derbys have been won by the favorite, just over one-third of the time.


    Always a good read eleven 301
    Nice way to play...................sometimes when I go to my local track, I will pick 4 numbers and play them in every race the same...................box them in exactas and tris.................no headache that way and enjoyable too.

    Best of luck to you, and to us all..........

    Be well everyone,
    ......So do all who live to see such times, but that is not for them to decide.
    ............All we have to decide is what to do with the time that is given us"
    Reply With Quote  
     

  8. #8  
    RX Wizard
    Join Date
    Sep 2007
    Location
    indiana
    Posts
    5,181
    Quote Originally Posted by elevenblack301 View Post
    wabash,

    how are you my friend................always look forward to this time of year..........

    funny you mentioned McKinzie, he also was my top selection..............just an amazing horse, should see much out of him this summer........

    will be posting some stats and such next week..................always only for entertainment purposes though................
    Hopefully his injury isn’t serious and he will be back for the Preakness. The way he fought back after getting bumped at top of stretch against Bolt showed how tough he is. A shame he got taken down in that race. Looking forward to your data the next few weeks.
    Reply With Quote  
     

  9. #9  
    RX Senior elevenblack301's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2010
    Location
    Ohio
    Posts
    1,420
    I think his connections said he would be out for all of the T Crown races.................................and I agree, he should have never been taken down, they were both bumping.............
    ......So do all who live to see such times, but that is not for them to decide.
    ............All we have to decide is what to do with the time that is given us"
    Reply With Quote  
     

  10. #10  
    RX Senior
    Join Date
    Nov 2008
    Location
    here
    Posts
    2,740
    Thought I would check back with Eleven !!!

    I have Justify at 7-1 in a Future for $20 ... I'm a small timer ....

    Something I discovered ...thought I would share .... which does not help my Justify Wager ...LOL !!! Oh well !

    Broke down last 18 years...... ( Win/Place/Show/ 4th place Horses ) of the Kentucky Derby and to my surprise ....

    35 / 54 that finished in Win / Place or Show Spots or 65 % finished in 4th or worse place the race prior to Kentucky Derby ...

    49 Horses that finished 1st/2nd/3rd or 4th place out of 72 or 68% ... Finished in 4th or worse place the race prior to the Kentucky Derby ..

    Last Year 2017 3/4 Finished 4th or better in race prior to Derby .... fyi

    Summary

    65% of all horses that finish 1st / 2nd or 3rd in the Kentucky Derby ...finished 4th or worse in their race prior to the Kentucky Derby ...

    68% of all horses that finished in the Top 4 Spots .....finished 4th or worse in their race prior to the Kentucky Derby ...


    Interesting ....


    Feel free to add notes / trends to the thread if you have something to share ....
    Reply With Quote  
     

  11. #11  
    RX Member
    Join Date
    Dec 2017
    Location
    VA
    Posts
    586
    I won't handicap the race until the night before the Derby..... But am hopeful, that I won't come up with a strong favorite. Somehow this feels like a long shot year. Was going to create a new thread asking what software (if any) do you use to handicap the races, but this thread about the Derby will likely get more views and possible responses.
    Reply With Quote  
     

  12. #12  
    RX Senior elevenblack301's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2010
    Location
    Ohio
    Posts
    1,420
    Hello Kaboom,

    Summary

    65% of all horses that finish 1st / 2nd or 3rd in the Kentucky Derby ...finished 4th or worse in their race prior to the Kentucky Derby ...

    68% of all horses that finished in the Top 4 Spots .....finished 4th or worse in their race prior to the Kentucky Derby ...

    Yes, some very interesting stuff.......................

    Looking forward to your plays, as always........................spending time watching replay after replay after replay of the prep races and trying to wean this field. There are some ' beasts ' out there this year.......................could the 'Curse of Apollo' be stopped this year ? Could the 'Curse of Dubai" ( as I call it ) also be stopped ?
    ......So do all who live to see such times, but that is not for them to decide.
    ............All we have to decide is what to do with the time that is given us"
    Reply With Quote  
     

  13. #13  
    RX Senior
    Join Date
    Nov 2008
    Location
    here
    Posts
    2,740
    Quote Originally Posted by elevenblack301 View Post
    Hello Kaboom,

    Summary

    65% of all horses that finish 1st / 2nd or 3rd in the Kentucky Derby ...finished 4th or worse in their race prior to the Kentucky Derby ...

    68% of all horses that finished in the Top 4 Spots .....finished 4th or worse in their race prior to the Kentucky Derby ...

    Yes, some very interesting stuff.......................

    Looking forward to your plays, as always........................spending time watching replay after replay after replay of the prep races and trying to wean this field. There are some ' beasts ' out there this year.......................could the 'Curse of Apollo' be stopped this year ? Could the 'Curse of Dubai" ( as I call it ) also be stopped ?

    Right now ... I have

    03/31
    09:38 AM




    Future/Prop
    Pending
    15.00
    600.00
    Horse Racing Futures Kentucky Derby Mendelssohn +4000 for To Win The 2018 Kentucky Derby



    03/31
    09:37 AM



    Future/Prop
    Pending
    10.00
    400.00
    Horse Racing Futures Kentucky Derby Mendelssohn +4000 for To Win The 2018 Kentucky Derby



    03/31
    09:35 AM




    Future/Prop
    Pending
    20.00
    800.00
    Horse Racing Futures Kentucky Derby Mendelssohn +4000 for To Win The 2018 Kentucky Derby




    Through another casino



    3/28/18 11:43am $20.00 $140.00 Pending 3/30/18 12:00pm Other Sports Horses Kentucky Derby - Justify +700*



    3/31/18 11:13am $5.00 $30.00 Pending 5/5/18 5:45pm Horses Other Sports 9001 Any horse wins Triple Crown 2018 +600*vs No Triple Crown winner 2018
    3/31/18 8:28am $5.00 $30.00 Pending 5/5/18 5:45pm Horses Other Sports 9001 Any horse wins Triple Crown 2018 +600*vs No Triple Crown winner 2018


    Adding a few longer shots later in gimmicks


    GL !!
    Reply With Quote  
     

  14. #14  
    RX Senior
    Join Date
    Nov 2016
    Location
    Florida
    Posts
    1,797
    2018 KENTUCKY DERBY FREE PAST PERFORMANCES HERE BY POINTS LEADERS, AS OF (04/10/18)

    Reply With Quote  
     

  15. #15  
    RX Senior elevenblack301's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2010
    Location
    Ohio
    Posts
    1,420
    Quote Originally Posted by Baldheadedprick View Post
    2018 KENTUCKY DERBY FREE PAST PERFORMANCES HERE BY POINTS LEADERS, AS OF (04/10/18)
    Thanks for the early PP's................much appreciated,
    ......So do all who live to see such times, but that is not for them to decide.
    ............All we have to decide is what to do with the time that is given us"
    Reply With Quote  
     

  16. #16  
    RX Senior elevenblack301's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2010
    Location
    Ohio
    Posts
    1,420
    Here is a little 'tidbit' to say while browsing the net yesterday............................ thanks for the individual that posted it !


    Here痴 a list of derby field, and the # of horses they致e faced in career and the number of those horses they beat. All races included
    覧覧覧覧覧覧覧覧覧覧覧覧覧覧覧覧-
    Good Magic 52/48
    Audible 38/36
    Noble Indy 32/30
    Vino Rosso 41/36
    Bolt 54/50
    Enticed 61/55
    Mendelssohn 65/50
    Justify 17/17
    Flameaway 86/72
    Bravazo 80/54
    Promises FF 53/43
    Magnum moon 26/26
    Runaway ghost 58/52
    Quip 42/36
    Free Drop Bummy 78/62
    Lonely sailor 83/62
    Hofburg 30/26
    Solomini 44/41
    Gronk 54/47
    My Boy Jack 92/74


    Of course, we have a couple of races this weekend to add to these numbers...........and I do not know exactly what to think about these ( do not know about how they fare up to the past history ), but it is something interesting to see
    ......So do all who live to see such times, but that is not for them to decide.
    ............All we have to decide is what to do with the time that is given us"
    Reply With Quote  
     

  17. #17  
    RX Senior elevenblack301's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2010
    Location
    Ohio
    Posts
    1,420
    Looks like it is going to be a wide open affair come the first Saturday in May. Should be about 6-8 horses which have a great shot.................just simply a very talented field.

    Do not believe that the derby favorite will be better than 4-1 this year, so a great opportunity for wagering. Time to start looking at some simple stuff first. Again these are just certain things I like to 'crunch' together when I am trying to cap this type of a race, being the monster that it is. So take it all in stride, if you will................



    Entries which are familiar with Churchill Downs Surface


    - Enticed-------------------------1 ( 1-0-0 )
    - Flameaway--------------------1 ( 0-0-0 )
    - Bravazo------------------------3 ( 1-0-1 )
    - Promises Fulfilled-------------2 ( 1-0-1 )
    - Quip----------------------------2 ( 1-0-0 )
    - Free Drop Billy----------------1 ( 1-0-0 )
    - Lone Sailor--------------------2 ( 0-1-0 )
    - Dream Baby Dream----------3 ( 1-0-1 )


    Entries which are familiar with the Wet stuff


    - Enticed..............................1 ( 1-0-0 )
    - Justify................................1 ( 1-0-0 )
    - Flameaway........................2 ( 2-0-0 )
    - Free Drop Billy...................1 ( 0-1-0 )
    - Lone Sailor........................1 ( 1-0-0 )
    - Firenze Fire.......................2 ( 1-0-0 )
    - My Boy Jack......................1 ( 1-0-0 )
    - Combatant........................1 ( 0-1-0 )
    - Dream Baby Dream...........1 ( 0-0-1 )
    - Old Time Revival ..............1 ( 0-1-0 )
    ......So do all who live to see such times, but that is not for them to decide.
    ............All we have to decide is what to do with the time that is given us"
    Reply With Quote  
     

  18. #18  
    RX Senior elevenblack301's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2010
    Location
    Ohio
    Posts
    1,420
    Now the ever so " may mean something, or may mean absolutely nothing ' statistic...............


    -----------------------Fastest Time for 1 1/8 Race


    - Audible...................................1.49.2
    - Vino Rosso..............................1.49.3
    - Enticed...................................1.49.3
    - Justify....................................1.49.3
    - Magnum Moon........................1:49.4
    - Dream Baby Dream.................1.49.4
    - Hofburg..................................1.50.0
    - Good Magic.............................1.50.0
    - Quip......................................1:50.0
    - Solomini.................................1:50.1
    - Noble Indy..............................1.50.1
    - Bolt D Oro.............................1.50.1
    - Flameaway.............................1.50.1
    - Lone Sailor..............................1.50.1
    - My Boy Jack...........................1.50.2
    - Combatant.............................1:50.2
    - Restoring Hope.......................1.50.3
    - Free Drop Billy.......................1.50.4
    - Instilled Regard......................1.51.3
    - Firenze Fire...........................1.51.4
    - Bravazo.................................1.54.0
    - Old Time Revival....................1.54.3
    - Promises Fulfilled...................1.56.3


    - Gronkowski..............................?
    - Mendelssohn............................?




    We all know that these times come from many different tangibles, such as different racetracks, different track surfaces, different weather conditions, different jockeys, who had what for breakfast that day.....and so on and so on etc..... But it is simply a number which I like to take a look at.............again, may mean absolutely nothing, but.......................

    Be well all........................
    ......So do all who live to see such times, but that is not for them to decide.
    ............All we have to decide is what to do with the time that is given us"
    Reply With Quote  
     

  19. #19  
    RX Wizard
    Join Date
    Sep 2007
    Location
    indiana
    Posts
    5,181
    The horse I’m starting to like for a longshot play is Hofburg. Ran big in Florida Derby in only his 3rd start after breaking his maiden in previous race. The 2nd place finisher in that maiden win, Just Whistle, came back yesterday and looked very impressive beating a good field at Keeneland. And he will love the added distance. If the pace is fast which I expect it will be, this is the type of horse that can run them all down in the stretch. A definite use in exotics underneath.
    Reply With Quote  
     

  20. #20  
    RX Senior elevenblack301's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2010
    Location
    Ohio
    Posts
    1,420
    Quote Originally Posted by wabashwonders View Post
    The horse I’m starting to like for a longshot play is Hofburg. Ran big in Florida Derby in only his 3rd start after breaking his maiden in previous race. The 2nd place finisher in that maiden win, Just Whistle, came back yesterday and looked very impressive beating a good field at Keeneland. And he will love the added distance. If the pace is fast which I expect it will be, this is the type of horse that can run them all down in the stretch. A definite use in exotics underneath.
    I can't agree more...........he is definitely one to put in your exotics and maybe, just maybe.......with all of the bouncing around he can take this...........

    This is what we have to wean down, the longshot plays...................................thanks for your input as always
    ......So do all who live to see such times, but that is not for them to decide.
    ............All we have to decide is what to do with the time that is given us"
    Reply With Quote  
     

  21. #21  
    RX Senior elevenblack301's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2010
    Location
    Ohio
    Posts
    1,420
    And Hofburg has some stats which I absolutely love....................his Late Pace numbers ( 80,99,101 ) and his SPD numbers ( 79,96,104 ) have gotten better with each race..................more to come with all of those numbers later.
    ......So do all who live to see such times, but that is not for them to decide.
    ............All we have to decide is what to do with the time that is given us"
    Reply With Quote  
     

  22. #22  
    RX Senior elevenblack301's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2010
    Location
    Ohio
    Posts
    1,420
    OK, one week gone a 3 weeks to go to Derby Day.................Here is my new top 10...........

    1.) Mendelssohn - can he break the Dubai Curse
    2.) Audible - believe he has another big race on deck
    3.) Magnum Moon - think he is the better of the 'did not race as a 2 yr olds '
    4.) Justify - starting to think he will have a tougher time than expected
    5.) Vino Rosso - interesting colt here and why did Johnny V decide this mount instead of his others
    6.) Bolt D'Oro - just can not get a handle on him yet of how he will bounce back after 2 grueling west coast races
    7.) Good Magic - wants to be there
    8.) My Boy Jack - this horse reminds me of Charismatic, a big closer and we know what he did
    9.) Hofburg - seems to be getting better every race
    10.) Flameaway - just always seems to be in the running and in the money

    ----- Be Well All....................
    ......So do all who live to see such times, but that is not for them to decide.
    ............All we have to decide is what to do with the time that is given us"
    Reply With Quote  
     

  23. #23  
    RX Senior elevenblack301's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2010
    Location
    Ohio
    Posts
    1,420
    Here is a little info, for what it is worth................

    Which prep tops the list with the most winners in recent history ?


    It痴 the Florida Derby with four. Right behind are the Santa Anita Derby and Arkansas Derby at Oaklawn Park with two. After that, the Blue Grass, Spiral and Sunland Derby, each have one.


    As satisfying as it may be to cash a win bet on the Derby, it痴 even more thrilling and financially rewarding to hit the exacta or trifecta on a race with a 20-horse field. To that end, the 33 top three finishers in the last 11 years can be a means to filling in some of the blanks.




    The prep that leads the way with seven in-the-money finishers might be surprising. With two wins, three seconds and thirds, it is the Arkansas Derby.


    The two stakes next are the Santa Anita Derby with six in the money finishers This one is quite logical, being the Santa Anita Derby with two wins, two seconds and two third.


    And the other reflects the value of expecting the unexpected at the Derby. It痴 the Louisiana Derby with no wins, but two seconds and three thirds all of them coming in the last seven years. Beyond that, in the last five years at least one Louisiana Derby horse has figured in the trifecta in three of them. Considering that the odds of those five horses in the Derby were 37-1, 34-1, 10-1, 9-1 and 6-1, including a horse from Fair Grounds definitive prep in a boxed exacta or trifecta could be the key to unlocking a huge payoff.


    After that comes the Florida Derby with the four wins but only one second which wold also give them five finishers in the money.


    Next is the Blue Grass with a win and two thirds for three. The Sunland Derby and Spiral both have a win and a second.
    ......So do all who live to see such times, but that is not for them to decide.
    ............All we have to decide is what to do with the time that is given us"
    Reply With Quote  
     

  24. #24  
    RX Senior elevenblack301's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2010
    Location
    Ohio
    Posts
    1,420
    Here are the Prime Power Ratings as of today's date...........

    152.6 Good Magic
    152.1 Audible
    151.8 Justify
    149.2 Bolt d'Oro
    149.0 Magnum Moon
    147.3 Enticed
    146.3 Solomini
    145.5 Vino Rosso
    144.7 Noble Indy
    142.8 Free Drop Billy
    142.7 My Boy Jack
    142.6 Flameaway
    141.8 Hofburg
    141.2 Restoring Hope
    140.8 Sporting Chance
    140.6 Quip
    140.0 Firenze Fire
    138.7 Combatant
    137.5 Snapper Sinclair
    137.0 Lone Sailor
    136.1 Greyvitos
    136.1 Pony Up
    135.1 Bravazo
    135.0 Dream Baby Dream
    134.7 Promises Fulfilled
    134.6 Reride
    133.8 Givemeaminit
    129.1 Machismo
    NA MendelssohnNA Gronkowski


    ---- very easy to wean some horses from the 'win % chance' from this list...............
    ......So do all who live to see such times, but that is not for them to decide.
    ............All we have to decide is what to do with the time that is given us"
    Reply With Quote  
     

  25. #25  
    RX Senior elevenblack301's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2010
    Location
    Ohio
    Posts
    1,420
    Fast Facts

    • The Kentucky Derby winner is the only horse that will grace the infield winner痴 circle each year. All other race winners use the grandstand winner痴 circle.
    • Bay is the most popular coat color of Derby winners, with 52 since 1875. Chestnuts may have a better chance of winning, though, as they have won 33 percent of Derbies (46) but only represent about 26 percent of foals born according to Jockey Club registry data.
    • The Kentucky state song, 溺y Old Kentucky Home, has been performed at the race annually by the University of Louisville marching band since 1936.
    • 鉄 is the most popular first initial among Derby winners with 19 all-time, most recently Super Saver in 2010.
    • The Twin Spires have watched over Churchill Downs since 1895 and are one of the most recognizable structures in sports.
    ......So do all who live to see such times, but that is not for them to decide.
    ............All we have to decide is what to do with the time that is given us"
    Reply With Quote  
     

Posting Permissions
  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •