Playing the game with the "don't" shooter in craps

bodyforlife · Sep 10, 2018

Anybody else here play craps and ever deal with a "don't" guy who doesn't follow any etiquette? I actually will occasionally go to the dark side myself realizing the odds are slightly better than the pass with max odds. But when I do bet the "don't" and I win, I take my money and STFU. I don't sit there and cheer knowing that most people on the table have lost their wager.

I was recently in Vegas shooting craps (juist me and another guy at the table at the time and our rolls had been decent). Some guy comes over in the middle of my roll and plops down $5k. So we sit there and wait for them to count everything out (we're both a little annoyed and he appears to be trying to impress some woman he's with...as though $5k makes him a high roller, lol). He gets his chips, smiles at me, and immediately puts some money on the "don't come". I look at the other guy on my end of the table and say "look at this prick...he makes us wait then wants us to 7 out after this roll). So I smile back at the guy and I tell the stickman "I'll pass". So they push the dice down to him and he's like "what's going on?". The stickman tells him the shooter is passing the dice to you. He freaks out a bit and says "no, I don't want to roll". They pass them to the other guy next to me (who catches on to the fun I'm having) and he also says he's not rolling. The guys just gets this frustrated look on his face and me and the other guy smile at him. He gets mad, grabs the dice and rolls. He proceeds to roll 3 numbers (he was betting the "don't" on every roll), repeats on two of them (me and the other guy had our passline and come wagers up). He hit 4 numbers for us, before finally hitting the seven, gets pissed, and storms off.

Good times!

5teamparlay · Nov 25, 2018

Best stay on the donts

they will all seven out

—-

The DON'T is the funnest bet on the table.
If you feel youe just HAVE to join the 'fun' of the DO bettors, then Place the 6/8 and cheer with the rest !!

Here are some 'quotes' from this site with the numbers proving the DON't betting:

========================================================================
1 in 9 will 7out on the 2nd roll (11.11%)
Slightly more than 1 in 9 will 7out on the 3rd roll (11.7%)
That makes about 22.8%.
So out of 1 million shooters (random AND DIs) over 228,000 will 7out by the 3rd roll.

Slightly more than 1 in 10 will 7out on the 4th roll (10.5%)
So, about 33.3% will 7out by the 4th roll.

50% of all shooters will 7out by the 6th roll.

========================================================================

You should know that about 60% of all shooters never make one point before they 7 out.
It is the odds on favorite and should be expected.
of course over any 10 shooter orbit about 1 in 8 will have 6 or more in a row not hitting one point.

No wonder why I have seen many high rollers (the smart craps players - some say the only smart players)
laying the point. They win the most times and the most money.

Willie99 · Nov 25, 2018

The difference in odds between the pass with max odds and the don't with max odds is statistically irrelevant for the overwhelmingly vast majority of gamblers. It's all about math and probability.

Pass players have the advantage when establishing a point, which offsets the don't advantage after the point is established.

99% of craps players, maybe more, are not going to play the perfect game anyhow. Most are just having fun, or should be playing for fun. If you're a professional playing craps 40 hours a week every week, well good luck with that.

BFL, totally agree, don't players with bad table etiquette can be assholes. Every craps player knows what I'm talking about

Betallsports · Nov 25, 2018

Tell the guy that lost $35,000 within 40 minutes when he came over to our table at the Mirage last year.

He was playing the Don't. He started when this girl ( maybe early 20's ) held the Dice for 25 minutes hitting numbers and made 5 points
She never played before. But her and her Boyfriend were playing just the Pass line, no odds behind and no numbers.
Well when the table , well the ones playing the pass line were hitting, kept throwing her Chips and telling them how to play
the whole table made money except of course the guy that had $35K in front of him. By the time he was finished , he had one Black chip. lol

kidman232 · Nov 25, 2018

i remember one of my first trips to vegas 21-22 years old at treasure island being drunk at the craps table not really knowing what we were doing.me and 2 or 3 buddies playing shooting from the pass line vs an older guy playing the dont's for $500+ a roll. the amount of celebrating we did for our $5 wins when he was losing $500 really pissed him off.

niltes · Nov 25, 2018

the old gambling maxim. those that beat the least make the most noise.

DoublePlayBall · Nov 25, 2018

I like craps; playing ONLY the 6 or the 8. Staying with one or the other... I only have to win one of two times against the 7 for a small profit and can enjoy the game without giving myself a heart attack....

RunMaker · Nov 25, 2018

niltes said:
the old gambling maxim. those that beat the least make the most noise.

That's kinda decent.

kidman232 · Nov 26, 2018

for the most part, don't bettors are assholes. They are loud and obnoxious and try to slow the game down in my experience, so I understand why they rub players the wrong way. Nothing worse than a don't bettor hopping the red for the shooter whose on the pass line lol

bodyforlife · Nov 26, 2018

5teamparlay said:
Best stay on the donts

they will all seven out

—-

The DON'T is the funnest bet on the table.
If you feel youe just HAVE to join the 'fun' of the DO bettors, then Place the 6/8 and cheer with the rest !!

Here are some 'quotes' from this site with the numbers proving the DON't betting:

========================================================================
1 in 9 will 7out on the 2nd roll (11.11%)
Slightly more than 1 in 9 will 7out on the 3rd roll (11.7%)
That makes about 22.8%.
So out of 1 million shooters (random AND DIs) over 228,000 will 7out by the 3rd roll.

Slightly more than 1 in 10 will 7out on the 4th roll (10.5%)
So, about 33.3% will 7out by the 4th roll.

50% of all shooters will 7out by the 6th roll.

========================================================================

You should know that about 60% of all shooters never make one point before they 7 out.
It is the odds on favorite and should be expected.
of course over any 10 shooter orbit about 1 in 8 will have 6 or more in a row not hitting one point.

No wonder why I have seen many high rollers (the smart craps players - some say the only smart players)
laying the point. They win the most times and the most money.

Actually none of that stuff proves anything. The basic math on the "don't" vs the "pass" wager with max odds shows that the house advantage on bet resolved is statistically insignificant (1.4% vs 1.41%) on a 345 table. The house advantage on the 6 and 8 is 1.52%. So no, statistically speaking, you would lose faster over the long run playing the 6 or 8 vs the "don't" or "pass" with max odds at a 345 table.

Willie99 · Nov 26, 2018

kidman232 said:
for the most part, don't bettors are assholes. They are loud and obnoxious and try to slow the game down in my experience, so I understand why they rub players the wrong way. Nothing worse than a don't bettor hopping the red for the shooter whose on the pass line lol

That's one of the classless moves, throwing in an any 7 just before the dice are thrown. Even yelling 7 constantly at the table. Recently, one guy was talking to his girlfriend about how the only way to make money was to play the don't. When he was winning at the beginning of his session he's saying "see" and "it happens every time". He even said how "easy" it was. Of course, one good roll wiped him out because he kept increasing his bet saying the shooter is due to crap out.

I can play with and socialize with and joke with don't players, they don't bother me. As with everything in life, it's the assholes I don't tolerate well.

charliepeete · Nov 26, 2018

i play dice exclusively with a little pai gow i very rarely see a don't player make money..............

bodyforlife · Nov 26, 2018

Willie99 said:
That's one of the classless moves, throwing in an any 7 just before the dice are thrown. Even yelling 7 constantly at the table. Recently, one guy was talking to his girlfriend about how the only way to make money was to play the don't. When he was winning at the beginning of his session he's saying "see" and "it happens every time". He even said how "easy" it was. Of course, one good roll wiped him out because he kept increasing his bet saying the shooter is due to crap out.

I can play with and socialize with and joke with don't players, they don't bother me. As with everything in life, it's the assholes I don't tolerate well.

I wiped out a guy myself on a hot roll quite some years ago who was using that strategy. It was apparent when I walked over to the table, that the pass line players were taking a bath, and there was this one guy doing a fist pump when the shooter 7'ed out. I put down my money on the pass line, he looked at me, grinned and put his money on the don't pass. I rolled a little over 30 minutes and when I was done, that rack of chips he had was down to a couple of black chips. The guy looked like a constipated Dan Synder when I finished my roll.

Every roll is independent. There's really no reason to ever think you're going to call a roll based on past outcome (be it good or bad). I can't tell you how many times I've seen people use the Martingale system and get destroyed.

bodyforlife · Nov 26, 2018

charliepeete said:
i play dice exclusively with a little pai gow i very rarely see a don't player make money..............

Oh, I've definitely seen it (no reason to think you wouldn't). Statistically speaking, you should see slightly more winners with the don't. I just think there aren't a lot of them and your experience is probably based on a small sample.

festeringZit · Nov 26, 2018

Willie99 said:
If you're a professional playing craps 40 hours a week every week, well good luck with that.

Is there even such a thing as a professional craps player? How can someone be a pro at a -EV game?

Makes no sense to me, unless they are able to alter their throws...

( I realize that there are other ways to turn -EV plays into +EV, by taking advantage of promos...etc, but I'd be surprised if
there are enough promos out there to make craps a +EV game ]

Betallsports · Nov 26, 2018

festeringZit said:
Is there even such a thing as a professional craps player? How can someone be a pro at a -EV game?

Makes no sense to me, unless they are able to alter their throws...

( I realize that there are other ways to turn -EV plays into +EV, by taking advantage of promos...etc, but I'd be surprised if
there are enough promos out there to make craps a +EV game ]

There's a few Professional Craps players out there, but most are banned or have been kicked out of a few Casinos

just ask Akillies

Also the Old guy that I use to bring to some of the bashes, some have met him. Was a Huge Gambler with Sports and Craps
But doesn't mean you always win. Even though he has won more than lose. I've seen him drop $50K in less than an hour, but Watched him win $500K within 2.5 hours.

The best was because he was Old ( 80's at the time ) he thought he could get away with not reaching the wall. Most of the time it worked
plus he use to tell them he had a bad arm.
Once we were on a table where he hit four 6's in a row without hitting the wall. Pit boss says if you don't hit the wall on your next roll we won't pay you.
He threw the dice harder and still hit the 6.

He had 3 ways he would throw the dice depending on what number he was looking for.
he never would try to slide the dice ( like someone here ) but of course if you didn't hit the wall, you have a better chance

bodyforlife · Nov 26, 2018

Betallsports said:
There's a few Professional Craps players out there, but most are banned or have been kicked out of a few Casinos

just ask Akillies

Also the Old guy that I use to bring to some of the bashes, some have met him. Was a Huge Gambler with Sports and Craps
But doesn't mean you always win. Even though he has won more than lose. I've seen him drop $50K in less than an hour, but Watched him win $500K within 2.5 hours.

The best was because he was Old ( 80's at the time ) he thought he could get away with not reaching the wall. Most of the time it worked
plus he use to tell them he had a bad arm.
Once we were on a table where he hit four 6's in a row without hitting the wall. Pit boss says if you don't hit the wall on your next roll we won't pay you.
He threw the dice harder and still hit the 6.

He had 3 ways he would throw the dice depending on what number he was looking for.
he never would try to slide the dice ( like someone here ) but of course if you didn't hit the wall, you have a better chance

I have to agree with Zit on this. What you're implying BAS is dice control (and I know some people believe they can throw the dice a certain way and get it to come up with certain numbers). I remember reading some cheap paperback I picked up for kicks and giggles (some Frank guy wrote it). He claimed he'd be in his garage with cameras on a craps table and practiced his rolling and the trajectory of the dice. He reasoned it was like a pitcher in baseball who can direct the ball anywhere he wanted it to go. I tend to laugh at stuff like that and call BS. I can't tell you how many times I've seen people take a bunch of time setting the dice or doing some stupid shit like throw the dice backward before tossing it (and that's put to an end quickly by the Pit Boss/Table manager), and then immediately 7 out. If they get annoying with it, I'll usually throw out some smart ass comment like "I could have done that without all the theatrics of your silly dice setting". Craps is a -EV game (no one can make a living playing it). You can however, prevent yourself from losing quite as much on the periodic trips to the casino, by making wagers with a smaller house advantage. And if you're able to get some sort of comps because your duration increased, then you can look at it as helping to pay for your vacation.

Betallsports · Nov 26, 2018

bodyforlife said:
I have to agree with Zit on this. What you're implying BAS is dice control (and I know some people believe they can throw the dice a certain way and get it to come up with certain numbers). I remember reading some cheap paperback I picked up for kicks and giggles (some Frank guy wrote it). He claimed he'd be in his garage with cameras on a craps table and practiced his rolling and the trajectory of the dice. He reasoned it was like a pitcher in baseball who can direct the ball anywhere he wanted it to go. I tend to laugh at stuff like that and call BS. I can't tell you how many times I've seen people take a bunch of time setting the dice or doing some stupid shit like throw the dice backward before tossing it (and that's put to an end quickly by the Pit Boss/Table manager), and then immediately 7 out. If they get annoying with it, I'll usually throw out some smart ass comment like "I could have done that without all the theatrics of your silly dice setting". Craps is a -EV game (no one can make a living playing it). You can however, prevent yourself from losing quite as much on the periodic trips to the casino, by making wagers with a smaller house advantage. And if you're able to get some sort of comps because your duration increased, then you can look at it as helping to pay for your vacation.

I didn't mean he was making a throw to Hit a Number. He had different throws to either Not Hit the wall or Hit the wall.
He didn't say he was throwing this way to hit a 6.

Also there are guys out there ( not many ) that can throw dice and land on your setting of the dice.
and of course the guys that will Slide the dice across the table with your setting.

These are not legal, but have been used for many years. Just can't get away with it like they use to.

VIEJODINOSAUR · Nov 26, 2018

Betallsports said:
There's a few Professional Craps players out there, but most are banned or have been kicked out of a few Casinos

just ask Akillies

Also the Old guy that I use to bring to some of the bashes, some have met him. Was a Huge Gambler with Sports and Craps
But doesn't mean you always win. Even though he has won more than lose. I've seen him drop $50K in less than an hour, but Watched him win $500K within 2.5 hours.

The best was because he was Old ( 80's at the time ) he thought he could get away with not reaching the wall. Most of the time it worked
plus he use to tell them he had a bad arm.
Once we were on a table where he hit four 6's in a row without hitting the wall. Pit boss says if you don't hit the wall on your next roll we won't pay you.
He threw the dice harder and still hit the 6.

He had 3 ways he would throw the dice depending on what number he was looking for.
he never would try to slide the dice ( like someone here ) but of course if you didn't hit the wall, you have a better chance

I sure do miss him but not as much as you....he was a player for sure....

That will be you in 20 years from now....hahahaha

DoublePlayBall · Nov 26, 2018

The one thing I hate about craps play is the crowded tables with a handfull of people shouting .. I'm a small $12/ 6 player and use a silly count system.. When there have been eith a predetermined number of 6's or 7's rolled, I quit for the session/day. If I get 1 6 rolled before 2 sevens are rolled than I profit $2. Just a cheap way to have some fun. I know it's a -even game

Playing the game with the "don't" shooter in craps

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