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View Poll Results: Better player, Michael Jordan or LeBron James?

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  • Michael Jordan

    31 77.50%
  • LeBron James

    9 22.50%

Thread: New Poll: Better player Michael Jordan or LeBron James?

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  1. #26  
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    No, it wouldn't mean that at all because the population is way bigger and also more players come from outside of the US now. Many of the best players right now weren't born in this country. Something that was unheard of 25 years ago. The pool is significantly larger and training is significantly more specialized. The 3rd best player in the '94 finals was probably Derek Harper. Not sure what more proof you need.

    Your 2nd point about human evolution has nothing to do with how it is being discussed in the context of basketball and the commercialization of the sport thus leading to greater efficiencies, you're just misunderstanding that part.
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  2. #27  
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    There's just more good players now because the population is way bigger, the game has opened up globally, the economic incentives are way better, tactics/training has evolved, etc

    Guys used to puff cigs at halftime back then.



    So when Patrick Ewing takes the court and the 2nd best player on his team is John Starks or David Robinson takes the court and the 2nd best player on his team is Sean Elliott that's a little different then when Embiid takes the court. There's just way more talent on the floor.

    Look at the Celts/Philly game and all the good players in it last night. You think a non-Bulls game featured that much talent 20-25 years ago as expansion diluted the talent pool of the league? It took years for the NBA to be able to fill out 30 teams (hell, it still can't really fill it out)
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  3. #28  
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hache Man View Post
    Part of your analogy would mean that a larger percentage of the athletic population has committed to the game of basketball over other sports, than in the past.

    I'm going to debate that just isn't true.

    Maybe if we dig deep enough there's some numbers online??

    The other part argues something I already addressed in an earlier post a few days ago in this thread or the other.

    That athletes have suddenly become head & shoulders better than those from ONLY 30-40 years ago.

    Consider that it took humans millions or hundreds of millions of years to evolve, and understand how silly this theory is.

    Did they somehow mutate to become Soooo much better in just a few short years?

    Honestly it's absurd.

    Yes there is better training & health awareness today, but not to the extent that today's athletes are far superior than those 30yrs ago.

    All fun debate.

    This is kind of like politics, nothing can change most people's minds.

    Donald Trump could reveal himself as Jesus Christ himself & those who despise him would continue to do so.
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  4. #29  
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    I did do a search & saw that high school sports participation had increased many years in a row.

    With that being said, there likely is more competition. (Just like the reason high schools are placed in districts based on their size & population which equates to more talent)

    I suppose it all boils down to whether you trust your eyes in what you have seen & followed then & now, vs analogies.
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  5. #30  
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hache Man View Post
    I did do a search & saw that high school sports participation had increased many years in a row.

    With that being said, there likely is more competition. (Just like the reason high schools are placed in districts based on their size & population which equates to more talent)

    I suppose it all boils down to whether you trust your eyes in what you have seen & followed then & now, vs analogies.


    So what you are saying is you think the 300 best basketball players in the world in 1990 are better than the 300 best now? This is what you believe?
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  6. #31  
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    Quote Originally Posted by PatsFan1283 View Post
    So what you are saying is you think the 300 best basketball players in the world in 1990 are better than the 300 best now? This is what you believe?



    If you base it on a larger pool, then the overall product is probably a little better.

    But that does not necessarily mean the elite players today are better than those just a few years ago.

    The pool is bigger but not enough to sway things to that extreme.

    If we are in 2050 having this discussion & are seeing the same increase in participation, then maybe.
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  7. #32  
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hache Man View Post
    If you base it on a larger pool, then the overall product is probably a little better.

    But that does not necessarily mean the elite players today are better than those just a few years ago.

    The pool is bigger but not enough to sway things to that extreme.

    If we are in 2050 having this discussion & are seeing the same increase in participation, then maybe.
    I didn't say all the best players now are better than all of the best players then. I said the reason it would appear to you there are less guys dominating now is because you're playing against more mediocre guys and the zone rules/defensive schemes/3pt shot making it harder for one guy to dominate.

    That's why it seems like there are less dominant players. It's harder to dominate. We didn't just go from 10 guys being able to dominate to 3 because people got worse at basketball over 30 years. We got there because the baseline to do so got higher.

    There were a lot of great players then but not a ton of teams with multiple big time talents. Portland #2 guy was Terry Porter, Starks for NYK, Elliott for SA, Maxwell/Kenny for Houston (before Drexler trade)......So that's why 1-2 players could carry teams to 50-55 wins more.

    Nowadays unless it is like LeBron in the vastly inferior conference, pretty hard for 1 guy to take a bunch of avg players to 50-55 wins. There's just more good players. Team building is better because of analytics/former players aren't running teams anymore either but that's another story.
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  8. #33  
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    Quote Originally Posted by PatsFan1283 View Post
    So what you are saying is you think the 300 best basketball players in the world in 1990 are better than the 300 best now? This is what you believe?
    That's not even a debate.

    Some teams these days don't even have a super star.

    The Nets best player is Caris LeVert..lol

    The Kings best player is Marvin Bagley...lol

    The Magic's best player is Evan Fournier...lol

    I'll stop there

    LMAO
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  9. #34  
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    Hawks started 50 year old Vince Carter tonight
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  10. #35  
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    LeBron with 6 turnovers in his first Laker game. Let's talk about him being on pace to have the most turnovers in NBA history.
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  11. #36  
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    Quote Originally Posted by festeringZit View Post
    LeBron with 6 turnovers in his first Laker game. Let's talk about him being on pace to have the most turnovers in NBA history.
    No doubt he will end up #1

    But the excuses will pour in from his supporters as to why.



    Most career turnovers

    NBA/ABA
    Rank Player TOV
    1. Karl Malone* 4524
    2. Moses Malone* 4264
    3. John Stockton* 4244
    4. Kobe Bryant 4010
    5. Jason Kidd* 4003
    6. LeBron James 3972
    7. Julius Erving* 3940
    8. Artis Gilmore* 3926
    9. Isiah Thomas* 3682
    10. Hakeem Olajuwon* 3667
    11. Patrick Ewing* 3537
    12. Paul Pierce 3532
    13. Magic Johnson* 3506
    14. Reggie Theus 3493
    15. Steve Nash* 3478
    16. Tim Duncan 3381
    17. Charles Barkley* 3376
    18. Shaquille O'Neal* 3310
    19. Allen Iverson* 3262
    20. Scottie Pippen* 3257
    21. Robert Parish* 3183
    22. Kevin Garnett 3179
    23. Dwyane Wade 3167
    24. Mark Jackson 3155
    25. Andre Miller 3121
    26. Ron Boone 3085
    27. Dwight Howard 3043
    28. Gary Payton* 3030
    29. Russell Westbrook 3001
    30. Clyde Drexler* 2977
    31. Michael Jordan* 2924
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  12. #37  
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    Quote Originally Posted by festeringZit View Post
    LeBron with 6 turnovers in his first Laker game. Let's talk about him being on pace to have the most turnovers in NBA history.
    Average of 0.8 more TOV per game than MJ while dealing 2.1 more assists per game (career) and 3.1 more assists per game over past four seasons.

    Quite acceptable, though no chance he will ever bat higher than .202 in AA baseball
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  13. #38  
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    You cannot compare different eras for obvious reasons, different rules, training, nutrition, etc etc... Funny how the same flawed argument goes, "now a days players would destroy yesterday's player, because of the training, nutrition, coaching etc etc" This flawed argument is based on the HUGE assumption that yesterday's player would not use the same training, nutrition and coaching that today's players use! It's like comparing a cyclist from 40 years ago, using the same training, nutrition, coaching and BIKE from yesteryear to a modern cyclist. When this comparison is made, the debater often says "well of course they have to have access to the same bike" well then of course they have to have access to the same nutrition, coaching and training etc etc. That being said let's look at the numbers

    Times leading the league in scoring

    Jordan 10 (greatest scorer ever)
    Lebron 1

    First team all Defensive team

    Jordan 9 (tied for greatest defender ever)
    Lebron 5

    So you have the greatest scorer ever and the greatest defender ever in the same body! How can you argue that he is not the greatest ever? Scores the most, defends the best. What else is he supposed to do to prove he's the best ever?
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  14. #39  
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    Quote Originally Posted by phdinsports View Post
    You cannot compare different eras for obvious reasons, different rules, training, nutrition, etc etc... Funny how the same flawed argument goes, "now a days players would destroy yesterday's player, because of the training, nutrition, coaching etc etc" This flawed argument is based on the HUGE assumption that yesterday's player would not use the same training, nutrition and coaching that today's players use! It's like comparing a cyclist from 40 years ago, using the same training, nutrition, coaching and BIKE from yesteryear to a modern cyclist. When this comparison is made, the debater often says "well of course they have to have access to the same bike" well then of course they have to have access to the same nutrition, coaching and training etc etc. That being said let's look at the numbers

    Times leading the league in scoring

    Jordan 10 (greatest scorer ever)
    Lebron 1

    First team all Defensive team

    Jordan 9 (tied for greatest defender ever)
    Lebron 5

    So you have the greatest scorer ever and the greatest defender ever in the same body! How can you argue that he is not the greatest ever? Scores the most, defends the best. What else is he supposed to do to prove he's the best ever?
    Yeah, exactly. The players today get to stand on the shoulders of the games advances. Not just in terms of nutrition or training, but also in terms of strategic optimization/coaching advances.

    It's the folks who pretend this isn't a real thing and actually think a devolution has taken place (i.e players were better 30 years ago, lol @ that) that are being stone cold ignorant.

    If David Robinson played today, he would be shooting 3's like Karl Anthony Towns can. Protecting the paint like Rudy Gobert.

    There are many guys from previous eras that just wouldn't be able to make it though. A lot of the guys that couldn't meet the athletic threshold would be in trouble (i.e slow white guys, some of the really big guys obviously just don't have the footspeed to play today...Roy Hibbert is a guy who could protect the paint and his career just died because the game changed so much during his career. This happens as well)

    There are some guys that would be better now than they were when they played. Mostly the fuckup types like AI, Kemp, Coleman because everyone just works hard and takes the game serious now to make 200 mill. Even Boogie lost like 30 pounds last offseason. It's just not cool to be a malcontent anymore really. They give you an AAU daddy at like 12 now if they see you got a chance to make 9 figures in the next decade.
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  15. #40  
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    The legends chime in on LeBitch's comment:

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  16. #41  
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    Lebron is better

    MJ is greater
    Where’s the collusion?
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  17. #42  
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    Quote Originally Posted by barman View Post
    Amazing post.....leave the poll open but we can just close any further Comments.

    Although if anyone can post one of those awesome youtube vids of like 5minutes of MJ slamming and jamming versus three or four white guys who can't get their feet set and just wave as he goes by I would be very happy
    No but I can post a bunch of videos of MJ burning a bunch of white AND black guys that under those old rules needed to take a guy's head off before a foul was called never mind a flagrant. What does Lebron do in those scenarios in big games when double teamed or schemed against? He delegates to roles players, kicks it out and when they can't make a shot he whines about not enough help. Needs megastars like Kyrie Irving, Love and Wade and so on. Whereas Jordan still found ways to take a game over.

    Another thing about your comment regarding Jordan dunking while a bunch of whites guys watched...don't forget several of those white guys that couldn't jump 2 feet off the ground were on his team also. Yeah he had his sidekick Pippen but he made Pippen. Unlike established superstars like Wade, Kyrie, Love etc.

    Jordan is better than Lebron. One thing that isn't up for debate is Michael Air Jordan has the killer instinct so does Kobe the black mamba Bryant. Lebron is mentally weak and doesn't put any fear in opponents.
    Sports is life..all that other stuff is just filler...
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  18. #43  
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    Quote Originally Posted by phdinsports View Post
    you cannot compare different eras for obvious reasons, different rules, training, nutrition, etc etc... Funny how the same flawed argument goes, "now a days players would destroy yesterday's player, because of the training, nutrition, coaching etc etc" this flawed argument is based on the huge assumption that yesterday's player would not use the same training, nutrition and coaching that today's players use! It's like comparing a cyclist from 40 years ago, using the same training, nutrition, coaching and bike from yesteryear to a modern cyclist. When this comparison is made, the debater often says "well of course they have to have access to the same bike" well then of course they have to have access to the same nutrition, coaching and training etc etc. That being said let's look at the numbers

    times leading the league in scoring

    jordan 10 (greatest scorer ever)
    lebron 1

    first team all defensive team

    jordan 9 (tied for greatest defender ever)
    lebron 5

    so you have the greatest scorer ever and the greatest defender ever in the same body! How can you argue that he is not the greatest ever? Scores the most, defends the best. What else is he supposed to do to prove he's the best ever?

    preach brother!
    Sports is life..all that other stuff is just filler...
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  19. #44  
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    This poll is much more like it. In 5 years it will be dead even. In 10 years Lebron will be known as the GOAT
    The little things, there's nothing bigger
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  20. #45  
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    Quote Originally Posted by JustinCruise View Post
    This poll is much more like it. In 5 years it will be dead even. In 10 years Lebron will be known as the GOAT
    Lol. Again you prove your limited knowledge of sports. In 10 years he will be even LESS in the debate for being the GOAT because many lemmings are living in the moment and forgot all about Kobe and Jordan and Magic etc.

    Also doesn't help that the dumbass Lebron is self promoting himself as the GOAT these days and has a huge social media following of lemmings. I wonder why he has to say he's the GOAT? I guess he couldn't win 6 championships with ONE team so he's resorting to his usual bitchmade mind games and declaring himself the GOAT to get underneath people's skins. He's no GOAT. Deep down inside even he knows Jordan would tear his heart out and chew on it and spit it out. Lol.
    Sports is life..all that other stuff is just filler...
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  21. #46  
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hache Man View Post
    People live in the moment.

    As the years & decades pass, memories fade & they forget how dominant he was.

    His array of moves is/was beyond compare.

    Most beautiful in my opinion being the post up which could turn into a jumper, fadeaway, or turn & drive..
    agree. I don't think it's close because of the mental makeup of the two.
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  22. #47  
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    This says it all and it's funny.



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  23. #48  
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    Quote Originally Posted by JustinCruise View Post
    This poll is much more like it. In 5 years it will be dead even. In 10 years Lebron will be known as the GOAT
    If LeBron can win a couple rings in LA, I think he will be cemented as the GOAT.

    From a pure basketball ability perspective, I don't think there's a question that LeBron is better than MJ. LeBron coasts more on defense and doesn't convert on the foul line as well, but other than that he is pretty much better than MJ at everything. He's going to finish his career with more assists than Magic Johnson and more rebounds than Kareem.

    One could argue that LeBron's greatest skill is his passing ability/court vision. You could make the case he is the best passer in the NBA. Yet even though he's a pass-first player, he's STILL about as good of a scorer as MJ.

    His well-roundedness and ability to impact a game is greater than anything we've ever seen in this sport. Look at what has happened to my Cavaliers since LeBron left...look at the shit he has to play with over his career. He turns bottom-feeders into championship contenders. MJ never did that.
    Where’s the collusion?
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  24. #49  
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    Quote Originally Posted by StanfordSam View Post
    If LeBron can win a couple rings in LA, I think he will be cemented as the GOAT.

    From a pure basketball ability perspective, I don't think there's a question that LeBron is better than MJ. LeBron coasts more on defense and doesn't convert on the foul line as well, but other than that he is pretty much better than MJ at everything. He's going to finish his career with more assists than Magic Johnson and more rebounds than Kareem.

    One could argue that LeBron's greatest skill is his passing ability/court vision. You could make the case he is the best passer in the NBA. Yet even though he's a pass-first player, he's STILL about as good of a scorer as MJ.

    His well-roundedness and ability to impact a game is greater than anything we've ever seen in this sport. Look at what has happened to my Cavaliers since LeBron left...look at the shit he has to play with over his career. He turns bottom-feeders into championship contenders. MJ never did that.

    Right. Lebron did all that himself. He made teams contenders because he got to the finals (and lost many of them) playing in a weakass Eastern conference.

    Lebron made teams contenders? When he ever make a team a contender without bonafide established megastars like Wade, Love, Irving, even guys like Bosh, Ray Allen etc? A BUNCH of help. Give me a break about him turning teams into contenders. All I've ever heard from that clown is I need more help and even when he got it he couldn't deliver and whined.

    The fact that you said there's no question about it shows you can't be taken seriously. I believe Jordan is better but at the very least it's a debate when hall of famers and other analysts etc are arguing over it. Guys that know more about it than us.

    No question...Lol. Give me a break.

    The shit he had to play with? Aside from that impressive effort taking that early Cavs team to the finals (and getting swept) he's had nothing but mega stars playing with him and wicked role players.
    Sports is life..all that other stuff is just filler...
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  25. #50  
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    Quote Originally Posted by road2perdition View Post
    Right. Lebron did all that himself. He made teams contenders because he got to the finals (and lost many of them) playing in a weakass Eastern conference.

    Lebron made teams contenders? When he ever make a team a contender without bonafide established megastars like Wade, Love, Irving, even guys like Bosh, Ray Allen etc? A BUNCH of help. Give me a break about him turning teams into contenders. All I've ever heard from that clown is I need more help and even when he got it he couldn't deliver and whined.

    The fact that you said there's no question about it shows you can't be taken seriously. I believe Jordan is better but at the very least it's a debate when hall of famers and other analysts etc are arguing over it. Guys that know more about it than us.

    No question...Lol. Give me a break.
    What was Cleveland like after LeBron left the first time? They had a star in Kyrie the years before he came back in that "weak" Eastern Conference, and still couldn't make the playoffs. Instantly brought them to the Finals four years in a row.

    What happened to Miami after LeBron left? They became irrelevant

    What's happened to Cleveland now? They're one of the worst teams in the league.

    Remember when MJ took a break? They still almost went to the Finals!


    If I was LeBron, I'd probably complain about trash players not being able to hit open shots that LeBron single-handedly created for them....
    Where’s the collusion?
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