Dear Mr Vill:
Thank you for your response.
I will definitely ask my California friend about the points you make when I call tonight. He's an old guy,
it's conceivable he did not see the lack of deductions, but only the lack of credit. That would weaken his
argument to a degree (but only to a degree.). He did inform me that when he complained about the
deduction you - or whomever he spoke to - did in fact mention that he had two losing bets that came in
late and were not deducted. But he does not keep precise accounts, he tells me, and could not
specifically recall. He saw the lack of credit, though, and that's when he jumped.
I do know he was very comfortable, and happy, with Millenium, and, as is the case with many older
people, loathe to make changes. That he did so (he informed me he made a large bet with what
remained in his account, it lost, so he was out) does indicate to me that he feels very betrayed.
I don't know that the details of the three bets, if correct, would invalidate the thrust of my comments, that
it is poor CS when dealing with call-in bettors not to at least once notify them of the rule, and keep in on
tape that one has done so.
When a bet comes in after the 3 minute cushion (to post time or start time?) and is not credited, is the
bettor so infomred when he gets an account update the next time he calls? (Again, it's all easy to see on
the website, but we're dealing here with a senior computerphobe.) I would think it incumbent to state to a
caller, "Well, Mr Jones, your $50 wager on 8-10 was not credited as it came in late, so your account
remains at so and so."
The point is that bettors, especially call-in bettors, should be informed about that.
The Prescription moderator, paid by the ad revenue that fuels the site, took your side and made the point
that the rule is posted on your site. So did at least one other poster, perhaps yourself.
Let me ask you something, and I presume here you at one time lived in the States and can relate.
You go into a car dealer to shop. The salesman takes you out in a car, tells you that it's a special, it
comes with a 200,000 mile warranty. Further, he assures, your oil changes and other required
maintenance for the first 50,000 miles will be free. And he states this will all be in writing. And indeed, he
does put it in writing, on a dealer contract, when you buy the car.
Then you come back for your first free maintenance. And are then presented with a bill. You holler
loudly, and demand to speak to the dealer. He reads the written warranty you received, turns to his
computer, smiles and points to a notice of his website: NO REPRESENTATIONS MADE BY ANY
SALESMAN ARE VALID UNLESS COUNTERSIGNED BY THE DEALER.
Obviously, your first step would be to contact that state's consumer fraud department. The second thing
would be to contact your attorney. And you would win, and win big.
Ditto for the brochure. Few - I'm an exception - read them through. The first time you had any customer
call in a horse bet, it would be incumbent to inform then, on the recording, that there is a 3 minute
cushion. (By the way, it is 3 minutes to "post", or 3 minutes to "off?". If to post, what is your source of the
post time?)
Now to the brochure, or booklet, of 2000, mentioned by Mr Brown in a tone of ultimate triumph.
I received betting brochures from Millenium five years ago (and still do). Unlike my friend, I read them
carefully. There was NOTHING in them in 2000 about a 3 minutes cushion. I would have definitely noted
it. There was nothing. I wish I had saved the ones I did receive, to counter the one Mr Brown says he
has. (And may well have, but it would be tossed out in a court of law, unless he could produce a number
of unbiased people who also received the same brochure. And I would sure as hell have my investigator
delve deep into the lives of those so testifying, to assure impartiality! I live in a state that is the most
corrupt in the union, as bad as Mexico I tell friends, where subornation and a host of insider games are
regularly played.)
In fact, in none of the material I received from any book did I see that. And in talking to bet depts at the
offshores (now I almost exclusively bet online) it was explained to me, when I'd specifically asked, that
the bets would be taken right up to the off, or start, time. It is extremely offensive to me that you, or any
other offshore I may have dealt with, would claim they had this rule from the get-go.
A bet taker at Millenium, at least once, re-iterated that the bets were valid up to the official start time. .
My friend in California may be lax, but I'm fanatic when it comes to the rules of a game in which I'm
risking my money. Unequivocally, at least once,and I think probably twice, bet takers at your firm told me
that I could put bets in up to the time the race officially goes off, the start time.
Possibly you also had a rule somewhere in your offices that dictated a 3 minute cushion. That would be
damning, as it would give a book the latitude to interpret whatever rule benefited them.
Mr Brown demands an apology. Here's why I will never apologize to Millenium. Around four years ago or
so (I did not keep records, as of course I had no way of knowing this matter would re-appear), Millenium
defrauded me.
You read it right. It was for a very small amount, your minimum horse phone bet at the time, which I think
was $20 or $25 dollars.
But it was a screw, and I was the screwee.
I called late to see if I could get a bet down. I believe it was at a SoCal track. I wanted to know if I had
time. The female bet taker assured me that I had, as she just checked the post time. So I made the bet.
There was no 3 minutes stuff here, no mention of it at all. I had been told, once at least, twice most
likely, by your firm's bet takers that I could bet up to the off or start time.
Later that day, I found out my bet had lost. I got to thinking maybe I had put it in too late, and it was not a
loss. (Again, by "too late" I mean after the start time, not after any putative 3 minute time, of which I - and
I suspect no other bettor at that time - had ever heard.)
So I called Millenium to ask if the bet had gone in. The lady - again - took the info, and told me to wait.
She came back after a minute and infomed me that yes, the bet was valid. And that I'd lost it.
Two days later I picked up the Form, with the charts for that race. I saw the official start time for the race
I had lost WAS ONE MINUTE AFTER I HAD PUT THE BET IN.
Stating this as delicately as I can, Millenium fucked me over. I can see now that I should have called and
screamed, and recorded the call. Rather, because I was dealing with relative chump change, I just wrote
it up to expereince,and at that time did not even close my account. (There wasn't much in it. But I did at
that time open several other accounts.)
But that specific experience, Mr Brown, is why I will never apologize to Millenium, not to mention that the
bottom line re the issue at hand is that of properly informing call-in clients of an important rule. And that
Millenium - and for all I know many other books - did not and does not do. But should.
Millenium always paid on time, no delays. Your promos are fine, and as far as I know you always lived
up to them. I am in no way implying that Millenium is the worst book out there (and in fact may well be
the best of the "Bad Nasa" grounp), but on this specific issue was negligent, even if the old timer was
remiss in not keeping proper accounts on his own. Other books may do the same (not spefically and
pointendly inform call in horse bettors of a cushion rule) but my friend was not betting with others, he
was wagering with your company.
When it comes to ethics and morality the offshore books have, as a group, accumulated a track record
that would generally place them last in the Ethics Derby. For instance, each year I receive several free
football publications, with some interesting stuff. And, of course, among the material is a rating of the
offshore books. The one that comes out of Atlanta always rates Millenium second in the world! Gee
whiz! With only Bad Nasa on top of it. And this from a pub that near its masthead boldly proclaims its
absolute independence. (Right, as independent as is the current prime minister of Iraq!)
There is, naturally, a rival free mag that announces 10 different books to be the best in the solar system.
More bullshit, of course. So, Mr Brown, your industry in general, and the group your book in linked to
specifically, are considerably behind the curve when it comes to morality, and in demanding apologies. I
do, though, appreciate your ethical fervor. Perhaps you should consider giving up the gaming industy in
favor of a sacerdotal pursuit?
Finally, it was interesting to me that my friend, if all bets in dispute were re-instated, would show an
account loss. Was that pointed out to him in the conversation? I don't discount the possibility that in
trying to enlist me in his cause on this matter he was less than precise in his relating of the matter. If he
gives permission, could you put the entire complaint conversation you had with him (I assume it was
recorded) on a voice mail I could provide you?
[Note: I give both Mr Vill and Mr Brown permission to post on this board their original emails to me.]
Thank you for your response.
I will definitely ask my California friend about the points you make when I call tonight. He's an old guy,
it's conceivable he did not see the lack of deductions, but only the lack of credit. That would weaken his
argument to a degree (but only to a degree.). He did inform me that when he complained about the
deduction you - or whomever he spoke to - did in fact mention that he had two losing bets that came in
late and were not deducted. But he does not keep precise accounts, he tells me, and could not
specifically recall. He saw the lack of credit, though, and that's when he jumped.
I do know he was very comfortable, and happy, with Millenium, and, as is the case with many older
people, loathe to make changes. That he did so (he informed me he made a large bet with what
remained in his account, it lost, so he was out) does indicate to me that he feels very betrayed.
I don't know that the details of the three bets, if correct, would invalidate the thrust of my comments, that
it is poor CS when dealing with call-in bettors not to at least once notify them of the rule, and keep in on
tape that one has done so.
When a bet comes in after the 3 minute cushion (to post time or start time?) and is not credited, is the
bettor so infomred when he gets an account update the next time he calls? (Again, it's all easy to see on
the website, but we're dealing here with a senior computerphobe.) I would think it incumbent to state to a
caller, "Well, Mr Jones, your $50 wager on 8-10 was not credited as it came in late, so your account
remains at so and so."
The point is that bettors, especially call-in bettors, should be informed about that.
The Prescription moderator, paid by the ad revenue that fuels the site, took your side and made the point
that the rule is posted on your site. So did at least one other poster, perhaps yourself.
Let me ask you something, and I presume here you at one time lived in the States and can relate.
You go into a car dealer to shop. The salesman takes you out in a car, tells you that it's a special, it
comes with a 200,000 mile warranty. Further, he assures, your oil changes and other required
maintenance for the first 50,000 miles will be free. And he states this will all be in writing. And indeed, he
does put it in writing, on a dealer contract, when you buy the car.
Then you come back for your first free maintenance. And are then presented with a bill. You holler
loudly, and demand to speak to the dealer. He reads the written warranty you received, turns to his
computer, smiles and points to a notice of his website: NO REPRESENTATIONS MADE BY ANY
SALESMAN ARE VALID UNLESS COUNTERSIGNED BY THE DEALER.
Obviously, your first step would be to contact that state's consumer fraud department. The second thing
would be to contact your attorney. And you would win, and win big.
Ditto for the brochure. Few - I'm an exception - read them through. The first time you had any customer
call in a horse bet, it would be incumbent to inform then, on the recording, that there is a 3 minute
cushion. (By the way, it is 3 minutes to "post", or 3 minutes to "off?". If to post, what is your source of the
post time?)
Now to the brochure, or booklet, of 2000, mentioned by Mr Brown in a tone of ultimate triumph.
I received betting brochures from Millenium five years ago (and still do). Unlike my friend, I read them
carefully. There was NOTHING in them in 2000 about a 3 minutes cushion. I would have definitely noted
it. There was nothing. I wish I had saved the ones I did receive, to counter the one Mr Brown says he
has. (And may well have, but it would be tossed out in a court of law, unless he could produce a number
of unbiased people who also received the same brochure. And I would sure as hell have my investigator
delve deep into the lives of those so testifying, to assure impartiality! I live in a state that is the most
corrupt in the union, as bad as Mexico I tell friends, where subornation and a host of insider games are
regularly played.)
In fact, in none of the material I received from any book did I see that. And in talking to bet depts at the
offshores (now I almost exclusively bet online) it was explained to me, when I'd specifically asked, that
the bets would be taken right up to the off, or start, time. It is extremely offensive to me that you, or any
other offshore I may have dealt with, would claim they had this rule from the get-go.
A bet taker at Millenium, at least once, re-iterated that the bets were valid up to the official start time. .
My friend in California may be lax, but I'm fanatic when it comes to the rules of a game in which I'm
risking my money. Unequivocally, at least once,and I think probably twice, bet takers at your firm told me
that I could put bets in up to the time the race officially goes off, the start time.
Possibly you also had a rule somewhere in your offices that dictated a 3 minute cushion. That would be
damning, as it would give a book the latitude to interpret whatever rule benefited them.
Mr Brown demands an apology. Here's why I will never apologize to Millenium. Around four years ago or
so (I did not keep records, as of course I had no way of knowing this matter would re-appear), Millenium
defrauded me.
You read it right. It was for a very small amount, your minimum horse phone bet at the time, which I think
was $20 or $25 dollars.
But it was a screw, and I was the screwee.
I called late to see if I could get a bet down. I believe it was at a SoCal track. I wanted to know if I had
time. The female bet taker assured me that I had, as she just checked the post time. So I made the bet.
There was no 3 minutes stuff here, no mention of it at all. I had been told, once at least, twice most
likely, by your firm's bet takers that I could bet up to the off or start time.
Later that day, I found out my bet had lost. I got to thinking maybe I had put it in too late, and it was not a
loss. (Again, by "too late" I mean after the start time, not after any putative 3 minute time, of which I - and
I suspect no other bettor at that time - had ever heard.)
So I called Millenium to ask if the bet had gone in. The lady - again - took the info, and told me to wait.
She came back after a minute and infomed me that yes, the bet was valid. And that I'd lost it.
Two days later I picked up the Form, with the charts for that race. I saw the official start time for the race
I had lost WAS ONE MINUTE AFTER I HAD PUT THE BET IN.
Stating this as delicately as I can, Millenium fucked me over. I can see now that I should have called and
screamed, and recorded the call. Rather, because I was dealing with relative chump change, I just wrote
it up to expereince,and at that time did not even close my account. (There wasn't much in it. But I did at
that time open several other accounts.)
But that specific experience, Mr Brown, is why I will never apologize to Millenium, not to mention that the
bottom line re the issue at hand is that of properly informing call-in clients of an important rule. And that
Millenium - and for all I know many other books - did not and does not do. But should.
Millenium always paid on time, no delays. Your promos are fine, and as far as I know you always lived
up to them. I am in no way implying that Millenium is the worst book out there (and in fact may well be
the best of the "Bad Nasa" grounp), but on this specific issue was negligent, even if the old timer was
remiss in not keeping proper accounts on his own. Other books may do the same (not spefically and
pointendly inform call in horse bettors of a cushion rule) but my friend was not betting with others, he
was wagering with your company.
When it comes to ethics and morality the offshore books have, as a group, accumulated a track record
that would generally place them last in the Ethics Derby. For instance, each year I receive several free
football publications, with some interesting stuff. And, of course, among the material is a rating of the
offshore books. The one that comes out of Atlanta always rates Millenium second in the world! Gee
whiz! With only Bad Nasa on top of it. And this from a pub that near its masthead boldly proclaims its
absolute independence. (Right, as independent as is the current prime minister of Iraq!)
There is, naturally, a rival free mag that announces 10 different books to be the best in the solar system.
More bullshit, of course. So, Mr Brown, your industry in general, and the group your book in linked to
specifically, are considerably behind the curve when it comes to morality, and in demanding apologies. I
do, though, appreciate your ethical fervor. Perhaps you should consider giving up the gaming industy in
favor of a sacerdotal pursuit?
Finally, it was interesting to me that my friend, if all bets in dispute were re-instated, would show an
account loss. Was that pointed out to him in the conversation? I don't discount the possibility that in
trying to enlist me in his cause on this matter he was less than precise in his relating of the matter. If he
gives permission, could you put the entire complaint conversation you had with him (I assume it was
recorded) on a voice mail I could provide you?
[Note: I give both Mr Vill and Mr Brown permission to post on this board their original emails to me.]
