Rangers / Angels

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Is the Angels offense that much better than the Rangers? Tough to tell after the first 3 games with Anaheim going against Seattle's relatively weak starting pitching and Texas having to face the 3 Oakland studs, but...

Starting pitching, the edge goes to the Rangers. Dickey has a significantly better WHIP as a starting pitcher than Ortiz has, and was solid to end the season last year.

Better pitcher, home opener, similar offenses... I'll take the plus money.
 

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SOS

no Offense but your nuts?!?!?!

How is Seattle's staff weak??? and how on Earth does the Rangers DIckey even hold a candle to Ortiz??

Angels romp and roll...
 

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Seattle's starting pitching is certainly nothing to write home about -- definitely not comparable to Oakland's.

As for Dickey being able to "hold a candle" to Ortiz?

2003 Ortiz as a Starting Pitcher: WHIP 1.51
2003 Dickey as a Starting Pitcher: 1.36


And while I don't put a lot of credence into spring stats, especially with the small sample size:


2004 Spring Ortiz: 1.80+ WHIP
2004 Spring Dickey: 1.18 WHIP


Just because you've never heard of him and he's on the Rangers staff, don't automatically assume he is the worse of the two pitchers.

It's certainly not a lock by any means, but with the Rangers having the better pitcher on the mound pitching at home and getting significantly plus money, its a solid value play.

I think the better question is -- how do you expect Ortiz to hold a candle to Dickey?
 

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I have heard of Dickey but your comparisons stop at the WHIP and go no further...and yu counter with spring training?

also you compare the Angels hitting a decent Seattle staff and the Rangers not hitting a decent Oakland staff?? What does one have to do with the other? Bottom line is the Angels are hitting the Rangers are not.



eX
 

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Why would my comparisons need to go past WHIP? It is by far the most telling statistic for a pitcher. But if you'd like to also compare ERA and opponents BA:

Dickey's 2003 ERA: 5.09
Ortiz's 2003 ERA: 5.20

Dickey's 2003 Opp. BA: .292
Ortiz's 2003 Opp. BA: .287


So Dickey's 2003 stats were significantly better in both WHIP and ERA (the two most telling statistics for a pitcher) and *slightly* worse for batting average against (and really a .005 pt difference in batting average is miniscule compared to the difference in WHIP/ERA).

So after all of those 2003 stats showing that Dickey is certainly the more effective pitcher, I also throw in spring training stats that show that Ortiz has gotten completely DESTROYED in spring training with a horrendous 1.85 WHIP, while Dickey has been OUSTANDING in spring training with a stellar 1.18 WHIP.

Now tell me again why it shouldn't be Ortiz trying to hold a candle to Dickey?


As for comparing the pitching staffs faced to see what offenese are under/over performing -- if you ignore this its akin to saying "Well the Angels hit 10 HR's off a guy with 15.00 ERA while the Rangers hit just 1 HR off a guy with a career 0.95 ERA". You have to compare the strengths of pitchers faced to get a realistic idea of how good/bad the offenses fared.

No one, and I mean no one can make a case that the Seattle staff and Oakland staff are both considered "decent".

Seattle WHIP's faced by Anaheim: 1.31, 1.25, 1.30

Oakland WHIP's faced by Texas: 1.18, 1.26, 1.22

WHIP doesn't alter that much from game to game, so those differences are *VERY* significant -- and I think you would have trouble finding anyone that considers the Seattle top 3 in the same league as the Oakland top 3.

That being said, lets look at how each team fared against those pitchers:

Angels vs Garcia (lifetime 1.31 WHIP): 0.85 WHIP produced -- 35.5% worse than what the average team does versus Garcia.

Angels vs Piniero (lifetime 1.25 WHIP): 3.25 WHIP produced -- 160% better than what the average team does versus Piniero.

Angels vs Moyer (lifetime 1.30 WHIP): 1.70 WHIP produced -- 35% better than what the average team does versus Moyer.


Rangers vs Zito (lifetime 1.18 WHIP): 1.375 WHIP produced -- 16.5% better than what the average team does versus Zito.

Rangers vs Mulder (lifetime 1.26 WHIP): 0.85 WHIP produced -- 33% worse than what the average team does versus Mulder.

Rangers vs Hudson (lifetime 1.22 WHIP): 1.80 WHIP produced -- 48% better than what the average team does versus Hudson.


So we'll consider the Angels 35.5% worse performance (versus Garcia) and the Rangers 33% worse performance (versus Mulder) a wash with a *slight* edge to the Rangers.

We can also consider the Angels 35% better performance (versus Moyer) and the Rangers 48% better performance (versus Hudson) a wash with a *slight* edge to the Rangers.


So that leaves the Angels performance versus Piniero and the Rangers performance versus Zito as the deciding factor of which offense truly shined and which offense truly struggled -- the Angels demolished Piniero while the Rangers only hit Zito 15% better than the average team. However Zito's WHIP was produced in over 250 more innings than Piniero's, so I think its safe to say Zito is significantly a better pitcher (and the odds put on these pitchers reflect that).

So as I said before, the Angels offensive performance against Seattle pitching was better than the Rangers performance against Oakland pitching -- but when you look at the opponents faced, the performance gap wasn't so large.
 

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SOS,

I owe you an apology not because I think your correct with the over value you have put on the WHIP or the way you downplay the pitching staff of the Mariners, but I do think Texas has a shot today.

In fact I am off the Angels altogether, great dueling with you and best of luck today...

eX
 

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SOS,
great job on the stats backing up your argument. We need more posters like you.
And Examiner, way to be a man and admit we can learn something from other posters.

A lot of immature posters could learn from you two.
Keep up the good work gentlemen and stay above the fray.
 

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Thanks sos,

Was sitting on the fence on this one since the early lines came out. Didn't know the detailed account on the starters.

Home Dog...home opener...usually a play anyway.

Sold me buddy,
GL
 

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BTW, this is the CLASSIC GOOD THREAD win or lose. We need more of these.
1036316054.gif
 

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Never in doubt:

Ortiz: 2.2 IP, 23.62 ERA, 3.75 WHIP

Dickey: 7 IP, 0.00 ERA, 0.85 WHIP

Some of you guys need to look deeper than "Rangers pitching sucks" when looking at these lines. Dickey getting plus money while not a lock in any sense, was an easy value play.
 

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Swallowing youur pride is alot easier than swallowing your wallet...

but Dickey gave up a three run jack to kennedy I know the runners on were on by error but doesn't he get charged with that? Just symantics but just asking...

Ex
 

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