About Vegas

packer2012 · May 28, 2004

I posted this in another thread. Am curious about other opinions.

Rio Shill,

No disrespect intended.... but to be at all credible on here don't say...

"Bottom line, Vegas continues to build more and more rooms by not scamming their clients."

If you want to play a word game on what "scamming" means, maybe some will agree with you. But FACT IS I can site you many reasons why what you say is false. One problem where there can be no argument is 6/5 on blackjack.

Might be accurate to say... "Bottom line, Vegas continues to build more and more rooms by ONLY scamming their clients to the point the traffic will bear."

OR...

"Bottom line, Vegas continues to build more and more rooms by not scamming their clients to the point that they run EVERYONE away."

Vegas is built from the ground up on "SCAMMING' everyone in EVERY WAY. Payback % on machines is totally misrepresented in that it is based on a formula that NO NORMAL consumer could ever understand.

Table games are discussed in terms of house edge based on perfect stategy. NOWHERE do you ever see figure on the "HOLD" on tables. Closely guarded secret (SCAM). Consumers are not meant to know what the chances really are. Just what the crooked laws of Vegas require that people be told!

This is too large a list of scams to ever discuss fully. Lets just a least admit that to say "not scamming the client" is a joke.

Illini · May 28, 2004

I think that Vegas is sinful in that they do wreck some lives, and they really don't give a damn. They have gambling problem literature all over, and say that their employees are trained on how to recognize problem gambling. But only Blackjack winners are ever banned, not the losers. They can spend every dime of their rent and food money, and the casinos are happy. That being said, I think that Vegas is a fun place for most people, and the casinos do provide a lot of entertainment. I, for one, really enjoy vacationing there. I guess for me, I don't think I could ever own a casino in good conscience, but I do enjoy playing in them. And I know I can't beat them.

Fishhead · May 28, 2004

I suggest you learn video poker and hammer the crap out of them.

99.9% of the people trying to learn HOLDEM would be MUCH better off if they learned how to play video poker.

packer2012 · May 28, 2004

Hey Fish,

Please tell us a little more. Can VP be beaten consistently for sure?

A guy can set there with a card to go by... right?

Fishhead · May 28, 2004

Yes, cheat cards are allowed, but I would not flaunt them......obviously.

Good pay video poker, coupled with a good slot card and a nice promotion will allow you to do very well.

Would suggest you learn DOUBLE BONUS 10/7 because you will find many higher denominations in this variety.

All things considered, this is the #1 game for the VP professional.

Fishhead · May 28, 2004

To answer your question if it can be beaten consistantly............absolutely, or I wouldnt have been in the business.

packer2012 · May 28, 2004

Do these type machines exist around the country on the riverboats?

Fishhead · May 28, 2004

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR>Originally posted by Packer:
Do these type machines exist around the country on the riverboats?<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Yes, and although the majority are probably on the up and up, they do not garnish the same type of regulation as the VP machines in the state of Nevada that require all machines to be TRUE POKER..........through the use of a legit random number generator(RNG).

Woody0 · May 29, 2004

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR>Originally posted by FISHHEAD:
Would suggest you learn DOUBLE BONUS 10/7 because you will find many higher denominations in this variety.
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Fish, Winpoker tells me the return on Double Bonus 10/7 is 99.9367% and with high varaince.

I always thought the best machines were full pay deuces wild, when you can find them. A 25,15,9,5,3,2,2,1 machine returns 100.762% and lower variance than the double bonus 10/7.

monicus · May 29, 2004

Mr Fishhaed is right that VP has almost no house edge but full pay machines are tough to find. I have never seen a full pay machine on the strip. But I did find some full pay jacks or bettor machines at Binions (9/6). For more info on playing perfect stategy go to wizardofodds.com. wizardofodds.com

WildBill · May 29, 2004

Just a point of clarification on Fish's point, if you play a game called VP in any casino in North America that isn't a tribal game you have a 100% guarantee that it is based on real decks being dealt at true odds. No questions asked, that is something every gaming board enforces and there are no exceptions. The exceptions come in some tribal casinos, just a few states, where they aren't legally allowed to offer VP the way it is played in Vegas so they offer something that looks like it, but is really based on some other math. If you don't know for sure, ask the tribe if they have "Class II" machines, which are generally found in Oklahoma and Florida for the most part. Washington and New York offer centrally determined games only, per state rules, so they also have to offer an unrealistic game of VP.

As for the games that Fish talks about, forget about finding them on the Strip. There might be a few out there, but maybe none that are 100% beatable games anymore. The reason why management doesn't want these games is not because they can be beaten, but plain and simple they can offer a worse paytable and get away with it. All the locals casinos offer beatable VP in Vegas, some more than others. Stations has gotten very stingy in recent years, your better choices are places like Monte Lago over at Lake Las Vegas, or for a close-in place the Palms has always held up the Maloof principle of very loose machines they started at the Fiesta.

Fishhead · May 29, 2004

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR>Originally posted by Woody0:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR>Originally posted by FISHHEAD:
Would suggest you learn DOUBLE BONUS 10/7 because you will find many higher denominations in this variety.
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Fish, Winpoker tells me the return on Double Bonus 10/7 is 99.9367% and with high varaince.

I always thought the best machines were full pay deuces wild, when you can find them. A 25,15,9,5,3,2,2,1 machine returns 100.762% and lower variance than the double bonus 10/7.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

10/7 DB has a 100.17% return.

Apparrently you are plugging in wrong numbers.

The reason you you want to play this strategy is because of the higher denominations you can play with DOUBLE BONUS, which will equate to a higher HOURLY expectation.

This really plays a major role when you are playing certain promotions.

Fishhead · May 29, 2004

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR>Originally posted by monicus:
Mr Fishhaed is right that VP has almost no house edge but full pay machines are tough to find. I have never seen a full pay machine on the strip. But I did find some full pay jacks or bettor machines at Binions (9/6). For more info on playing perfect stategy go to wizardofodds.com. http://wizardofodds.com<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

9/6 jacks or better is NOT a full-pay 100+% game unless you factor in a slot card or promotion.

Also, before I retired from being a professional VP player in Vegas 2 years ago, you could find full-pay 100+% machines in some other variety in MORE than half the strip casinos.

[This message was edited by FISHHEAD on May 30, 2004 at 01:22 AM.]

Woody0 · May 30, 2004

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR>Originally posted by FISHHEAD:
10/7 DB has a 100.17% return.

Apparrently you are plugging in wrong numbers.
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

The numbers I have listed for 5 coins in on Double Bonus are:

RF: 4200; SF 250; 4A's: 750; 4 2's, 3's, 4's: 450 4 5-k's: 250; FH: 40; FL: 25; STR: 20; 3OAK: 10; 2PR: 10; J's: 5.

These numbers are from Winpoker6. Where is the error in the paytable?

Fishhead · May 30, 2004

Woody- Those are payout figures from a VERY RARE form of DOUBLE BONUS.

Regular 10/7 DOUBLE BONUS is as follows.....

ROYAL- 4000
SF- 250
ACES- 800
twos, threes, fours- 400
5-K- 250
FH- 50
FL- 35
ST- 25
3ofkind- 15
2 pair- 5
jacks or better- 5

This is 100.17% with perfect play.

Woody0 · May 30, 2004

Fishhead, thanks for pointing me in the right direction.

Fishhead · May 30, 2004

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR>Originally posted by Woody0:
Fishhead, thanks for pointing me in the right direction.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

monicus · May 30, 2004

Hey Fish do you have any tales to tell about being a pro VP player? Always wondered if you could make a buck with such slight advantages.

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