An open response from World Sports Exchange . . .

Search

New member
Joined
Sep 21, 2004
Messages
5
Tokens
There’s been a lot of talk on the Prescription lately regarding World Sports Exchange, our bookmaking hold, and how it relates to industry standards, both present and future. We appreciate the atmosphere of constructive criticism, and in that spirit we’d like to lay our cards on the table, address some problems we see in the industry, and discuss measures we might be able to introduce in the coming year.

Probably the greatest misconception is that the major bookmakers are gouging customers when their holds are actually pretty modest. One poster, for example, pointed to the “70-cent line” we posted for the Wimbledon Women’s final (-270 Serena/+200 Venus) as evidence. This makes us wonder if people really understand the nature of an odds ladder. We’ll save the math for another post, but if you know how to convert odds to percentages, you’ll find that, across the board, our tennis lines imply a hold of 5.9% to 6.7%, with an average of 6.4%. It doesn’t matter if it’s a “70-cent line” of –270/+200 or a “30-cent line” of –140/+110; the odds ladder is designed so the juice is always the same.

Our odds ladders are different for every sport, and the implied hold varies accordingly. In football and basketball it’s 4.4%; golf matchups are 4.8%, and for baseball it’s 2.0%, as we’re one of a handful of shops left that book baseball on a dime line. Most of our interactives are booked at a theoretical 4.0% to 5.0%, though in practice this is more like 1.0% since real-time betting can be so favorable to the player.

These are pretty competitive odds, and if you sum it all up, we came out ahead by a little more than 3.0% last year. Of course, operating, advertising, and legal expenses have to be factored in next, but here’s the kicker: banking and transaction costs amounted to a full 1.0% of the handle. Not 1.0% of the profit, but 1.0% of the handle. Not many people realize the massive fees that banks and credit card companies charge to move money, and World Sports Exchange has always picked up this tab for both customer deposits and withdrawals.

That means, unfortunately, that there’s not a lot of room to maneuver when it comes to giving money back to customers. Of course, some may point to deep-discount books that post numbers like –275/+265 on the Wimbledon final as an example that most books can do a little more. But you do the math: that’s booking at a 0.7% hold, which after the transaction costs, bonuses, etc., is booking for free or even at a slight loss. If the question is Why doesn’t World Sports Exchange book bets at a 0% hold, the answer is because there’s only one way for a book to do this and stay in business: gamble. That’s either directly, by using the house money to bet into other books, or indirectly, by posting extremely aggressive lines.

Our concern is that a quick round of price slashing is going to have a similar effect on the industry that the bonus wars had a couple of years ago. Books will be forced to undercut each other, literally start rolling the dice, and once their luck runs out, it’s Aces Gold all over again.

Our aim is to sustain a bookmaking model such that players don’t have to worry about whether we’re having a good or a bad football season in order to get paid. One idea we’ve been bouncing around focuses on the huge costs we incur from banks and credit card companies.

What if we asked customers to start paying for their own credit card transactions, and in exchange we returned that 1.0% to all our customers in the form of tighter lines? In other words (for anyone still struggling with the odds ladder concept), World Sports Exchange could book all the major sports at –108 instead of –110. This would give our customers the best of both worlds: rock-solid financial stability coupled with even better odds. The downside, of course, is the inconvenience caused to our customers, even those who seem compelled to send money back and forth on their credit cards on a daily basis.

Let us know what you think. Hopefully, we can generate some positive discussion on an issue that is certain to be affecting the entire industry.

Regards,

Haden

WORLD SPORTS EXCHANGE
 

Another Day, Another Dollar
Joined
Mar 1, 2002
Messages
42,730
Tokens
Thanks Haden.

Hope to see you posting more of your knowledge in the forums.

Best of luck
 
Joined
Sep 21, 2004
Messages
1,026
Tokens
Hey Haden,
nice to see you around these parts, longtime,
good luck going forward!

I asked Steve this a while back, instead of seeking another means to pay the financial companies, has WSEX ever considered their own system, either debit card based, or something similar to a neteller system, but just for use with your book?

Take care.
 

New member
Joined
Sep 21, 2004
Messages
2,497
Tokens
Great to see a books' presence on the forums, regardless of what people think of all of this, I think we can all agree on that.
 

There's always next year, like in 75, 90-93, 99 &
Joined
Sep 20, 2004
Messages
15,270
Tokens
Great post Haden.
Your reply is appreciated.

I can't argue you math - it is what it is, but you seemed a bit open to feed back on this section in particular :

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR> What if we asked customers to start paying for their own credit card transactions, and in exchange we returned that 1.0% to all our customers in the form of tighter lines? In other words (for anyone still struggling with the odds ladder concept), World Sports Exchange could book all the major sports at –108 instead of –110. This would give our customers the best of both worlds: rock-solid financial stability coupled with even better odds. The downside, of course, is the inconvenience caused to our customers, even those who seem compelled to send money back and forth on their credit cards on a daily basis.

Let us know what you think. Hopefully, we can generate some positive discussion on an issue that is certain to be affecting the entire industry.
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Haden,
I don't have an iota the experience in this aspect as you certainly do, but my opinion on this matter is that if a client is charging CC transactions back and forth everyday they aren't exactly the most loyal of customers. These guys are ringing up a large bill that dumps the higher juice on the loyal players. I would suggest that to be fair to both models you get a choice - low juice or free payouts. Some books do a hybrid of this with ONE free w/d per month (ie Pinnacle) & i happen to think this is the fairest of solutions.

I also can't help but think that the guys with daily transactions are the one's that are also defaulting on their CC payments, doing chargebacks, etc ...

Either way, thanks for your well thought-out response.

GL to you & your staff.
 

Old Fart
Joined
Sep 21, 2004
Messages
2,395
Tokens
Thanks Hayden !
I've never had any problem with WSEX and have allways felt 100% comfortable playing there. I can only say that for for 1 maybe 2 other books!
 

New member
Joined
Mar 20, 2002
Messages
2,093
Tokens
Good post.

My only issue with it is the contention that you are one of the few books left to offer dime lines. A lot of books now offer dime lines (the number is growing not shrinking) and many of them go higher with the dime line than WSEX.

Quite frankly it is the "business" focus attitude of WSEX that makes it very appealing to me. Haden and Steve make this book solid.
 

ODU GURU
Joined
Feb 26, 1999
Messages
20,881
Tokens
Thank you Haden...

WSEX has always been one of my favorite sports books of them all...
bowdown.gif


P.S. FREE JAY COHEN!!!
icon_wink.gif


THE SHRINK
 

Doin' the life thing...
Joined
Aug 20, 2001
Messages
3,878
Tokens
Haden:

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR> Of course, some may point to deep-discount books that post numbers like –275/+265 on the Wimbledon final as an example that most books can do a little more. But you do the math: that’s booking at a 0.7% holdthat’s booking at a 0.7% hold, which after the transaction costs, bonuses, etc., is booking for free or even at a slight loss. If the question is Why doesn’t World Sports Exchange book bets at a 0% hold, the answer is because there’s only one way for a book to do this and stay in business: gamble. That’s either directly, by using the house money to bet into other books, or indirectly, by posting extremely aggressive lines<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Thanks for posting, Haden.

1036316054.gif
 

New member
Joined
Sep 21, 2004
Messages
3,250
Tokens
I like this book a lot but I have a hard time believing they only hold 1 % on interactives with a 5 dollar bid/ask spread.
 

New member
Joined
Sep 21, 2004
Messages
5
Tokens
Thanks for the support, guys. Just a few thoughts:

Sodium P-- Our own debit card system would be the cat's meow and would solve a lot of problems for everyone. It's not as easy to implement as it sounds, though . . ..

Lander-- We definitely need to reeducate our credit card junkies. We considered the either/or model you mention, but it does introduce the need to start dealing two lines, something we are reluctant to do.

Appreciate the compliment, Lakerfan, and point taken on the dime line. It would be a shame to lose out on baseball kudos for the sake of a few rungs on the ladder. P.S. The WSEX Movie Desk says they've missed you lately.

Pancho-- Believe me, players have more than a sporting chance with the WSEX Interactives. The spreads are actually 4-wide in baseball, and once you get below 17-22 in golf or futures markets, the spreads fall to 4-, 3-, and 2-wide. It's harder than you might think to price up live games on the fly, and most nights we take that 1.0% with a big sigh of relief.

Haden

WORLD SPORTS EXCHANGE
 

New member
Joined
Sep 21, 2004
Messages
264
Tokens
First of all – a BIG BIG BIG thumbs up for replying and making this an open discussion. Like I said in my original post, I love WSEX and am looking for reasons to continue as a customer. One of the best things in your post is your openness to discuss the business side of this - a side that I know nothing about but want to understand. Thanks for enlightening us.

It sounds as if the payment issue is the key here. This is a really ignorant question – but why is it so difficult? Can you open a bank account in the US that we could deposit? It seems like there could be something in place but I am SURE that because of the gravity of this issue every option has been explored. I would just like to understand what is keeping books or a service to make this easier for themselves and the player.

I would love it if you had a rating for players. Just like casinos do. If you are a 5 star player you get different privileges than a 1 star player. Make the 1 star player pay his transaction fees if they are using cc in and out every day. Im sure you can look up who I am and my history with you guys. I have been with you I think since the beginning and bet dimes and deposit large amounts. It makes me mad that a twenty dollar bettor that puts a hundred on his visa is keeping me from getting the maximum value. Let players earn their keep and I am sure they would respond favorably.

Let me reiterate – MAJOR PROPS TO WSEX FOR THIS OPEN DISCUSSION. I wish everyone would be as open as this but books just expect us players to send money to businesses that we know very little about. I think because of these types of forums players are requiring the information to make decisions with their money, and books will be required to partner more with the player.

Thanks again Haden. And as a player let me be the first to tell you that it is also difficult as a player to deposit and withdraw – but I would welcome any system to make this easier and cheaper for both of us.
 

New member
Joined
Sep 21, 2004
Messages
264
Tokens
And on the Jay Cohen issue, I have always been a huge supporter of Jay. I have written tributes to Jay on this forum. I hope he is doing well and gets out soon.
 

New member
Joined
Sep 21, 2004
Messages
264
Tokens
i posted this over at covers when Jay went to jail.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Jay Cohen will be reporting to prison today - I wrote this a few months back but wanted to repost in case some didnt read. CALL YOUR CONGRESSMEN AND SENATORS!

For any of you out there that does not recognize the name Jay Cohen – let me fill you in. Jay was one of the founding fathers of the Worlds Sports Exchange and also the target of a pointed probe by the US government. They wanted to make an example of Jay and send a message to the online gaming industry that the US government would have the right to exercise its jurisdiction over a foreign sovereign nation. The case took years to resolve and after all legal resources were exhausted, Jay was found guilty of some BS US criminal statute and was sentenced to 21 months in prison.

Imagine starting your own sportsbook in a foreign country knowing that you are not welcome back in the US again. Then imagine your disbelief that you are being sought after by a government that has disowned you and comes after you in a foreign land. Jay was following the laws of Antigua but the US government feels that they have the right to govern other sovereign nations so they went after Jay. A warrant was put out for Jay along with many others (20?). Jay was the only one who decided to face the music and take the lead in trying to have the US court system tell law enforcement agencies that their jurisdiction lies in the US and that they cannot govern other nations.

Well, to make a long story short, Jay lost. I am not writing this post to discuss the legalese BS – although my opinion is that it is total BS – but I want to personally thank and commend Jay on his attempt to do the right thing. I have no affiliations with Jay – nor have I ever met him – I am just an admirer of those that fight to the end for what is right. Jay will do time for something we all take for granted.

Jay – to you I say thank you for being a role model. YES I SAID A ROLE MODEL. I hope my kids turn out to have the resolve you have and fight for what they believe in. I wish you nothing but the best and besides losing lots of cash at your sportsbook I have nothing else to offer.

I have written congressmen and senators – and I hope all that read this will do the same.

Good luck Jay – and keep in touch.
 

New member
Joined
Sep 21, 2004
Messages
32
Tokens
WSEX has to be in my top 3 books! Its a shame people do the cc transactions, I wonder if the users have any idea on the charges. I may be a little guaily of using neteller too often and thats why I don't mind paying the $15 fee, but the free one every 10 days is great! I think it would be a great idea to hold all customers responsible for the cc transaction as I'm not a C.C. user
icon_smile.gif
if this would happen you said you may be able to offer like -108. My opinion most gamblers would be happy with this exchange
 

New member
Joined
Sep 21, 2004
Messages
3,976
Tokens
WSEX,

Nice post and thanks for coming in. And if the poster bashing you is named Railbird then just ignore him.... we do!
 
I signed up with wsex the day after they were raided and have been a somewhat loyal customer ever since.

However, I too have found my loyalty slipping. Here's the reasons:

-customer service has declined. You guys just aren't friendly anymore, and always seem in a hurry to take care of a bigger fish. Maybe too cocky. Last season I tried to explain to one of your prop managers I"d like to place action on the other side of a large moving line which had been closed due to one sided action, but he was too busy telling me how much money he was taking to even understand I wanted the other side.

-Juice. I'm with pancho, interactives at 25-30 spread, and then unable to get in at a reasonable moment, can't help but feel gouged. If someone is making a lot of money on interactives its not the casual bettors.

-Props. Please don't tell me about your low hold on props, I rarely find either side of a prop which is enticing.

It seems to me lander is correct here, you are catering to the money movers with your withdrawel policies, at the expense of real bettors who tried to be loyal to your operation.

It looks like your business model is to cater to the bigger fish and whales while juicing the casual bettor. So be it.

You don't want us, that's fine. I realize you have to make a profit, but it won't be at my expense. future good luck to you.

Have any of you written Jay cohen lately?
 

New member
Joined
Sep 21, 2004
Messages
494
Tokens
Thanks for replying Haden. I appreciate you taking the time to respond. Shows a lot of class.

I, for one, would favor the reduce price for an exchange of fees. Perhaps one free transaction per month. I don't have a problem paying for fees. I normally deposit a decent amount to last me for quite a while, as long as I don't suffer a long losing steak.

WSEX is always an out for me but, I must admit, with higher vig, Canbet and Pinnacle get my first choice, unless the line dicates otherwise.

Thanks again for responding.
 

The Great Govenor of California
Joined
Feb 21, 2001
Messages
15,972
Tokens
Wsex is clearly not for the amature punter with 5 or less outs, if you have a humongus bankroll and can afford to have 30+ outs then you may be able to find occasional value with them, because they are not proffesional linemakers. As for Jay he basically put himself in jail by kicking a gifthorse in the mouth, and he got off easy.
 
Joined
Sep 20, 2004
Messages
20,303
Tokens
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Railbird:
Wsex is clearly not for the amature punter with 5 or less outs, if you have a humongus bankroll and can afford to have 30+ outs then you may be able to find occasional value with them, because they are not proffesional linemakers. As for Jay he basically put himself in jail by kicking a gifthorse in the mouth, and he got off easy.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>


Oh shut up already. Your brain has more holes in it then a person with 200 piercings.
 

Forum statistics

Threads
1,106,818
Messages
13,439,126
Members
99,339
Latest member
billcunninghamhomeloans
The RX is the sports betting industry's leading information portal for bonuses, picks, and sportsbook reviews. Find the best deals offered by a sportsbook in your state and browse our free picks section.FacebookTwitterInstagramContact Usforum@therx.com