How many "Major Books" fail/slow pay per year?

For you guys have been at this game for YEARS how many times a year does a "major book" slow pay or fail? ("major book" is nebulous but each poster can use his judgement)

How frequently does a newish book who advertises/promotes heavily on the Rx or sites like it slow pay/fail?

With a few of these situations coming up in the last few months, I'm trying to assess how safe my money is at some of the "bedrocks" of offshore. Even two months ago I would think that if a newbie asked whether or not he should play at Royal the answer would have been YES by a landslide. I'm not suggesting that they have failed it's just that the funds on deposit there are in danger.

If us outsiders cannot rely on the "insiders" to lead us in the right direction when selecting a book then what chance do we have when posting up offshore?!?!

Swami...I have mainly been with pinny and oly for the entire time...my first nopay/slowpay was GA going under but it was for a contest. I do not think many MAJOR books do this, but im not sure

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>For you guys have been at this game for YEARS how many times a year does a "major book" slow pay or fail?<HR></BLOCKQUOTE> I would say out of the 15 quality major books(which would leave out the BetOnSports, SIA's & Sportsbook.com's types) you get one of the majors in trouble every 3 years.

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>How frequently does a newish book who advertises/promotes heavily on the Rx or sites like it slow pay/fail? <HR></BLOCKQUOTE> Small to med forum advertisers that go under really depend on the site but the average forum site has seen about 4 failures a year.

Buzz,
Off topic, but how would you rate BestLineSports?

I'd ask Stink but since they advertise I know he'd say they're better than Pin and Oly

Thanks.

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Dante:
Swami...I have mainly been with pinny and oly for the entire time...my first nopay/slowpay was GA going under but it was for a contest. I do not think many MAJOR books do this, but im not sure<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Thanks Dante-

Pinny is really my main out but I have accounts at other places and the trends I see start to worry me. I missed getting jacked by GA by maybe a month or so.

I guess the only prudent move for a guy like me would be to pull nearly everything out and keep the bare essential funds used regularly in the accounts.

The funny thing is that I have an account at an offshore gaming operation (not at a book) that pays me 10% on my balances. That is a better return than ANY guaranteed investment I can find on my own. I hate to pull it out but this place is about as safe as a Pinny, Oly, or Wsex and even places like that are not immune from running for the border.

Thanks Buzzsaw-

So of the Top 15, one goes down every 3 years.... wow!

What about the Top 5?

It seems that if a Top 15 book would go down that would ROCK the industry for a couple of years.

BTW, have Pinny, Wsex, and Oly ever been in a slow pay or no pay situation in the past 5 years?

running for the border... that's funny they are already are over the border and out of reach.

anyway I know what you are saying.

only keep what you need with these books, ANYONE of them could close their doors tomorrow.

major books?

i would say its pretty rare for major books.

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by buddyboy:
running for the border... that's funny they are already are over the border and out of reach.

....SNIP...<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Glad you found the attempted humor in that.

BestLines does not generate much feedback good or bad. Derrick from Legendz runs the joint now and I've always thought of him as an honorable guy.

The 1 in 15 every three years in trouble(not necessarily go bankrupt) is pretty strong considering this industry and how new it is. Other industys like technology or whatever probably has no better ratio on average.

The only significant failure was AcesGold which proved that a big book could actually fail if mismanaged badly enough.

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Buzzsaw:
SNIP.....

The 1 in 15 every three years in trouble(not necessarily go bankrupt) is pretty strong considering this industry and how new it is. Other industys like technology or whatever probably has no better ratio on average.

....SNIP.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I tend to disagree with you on this. The failures from a corporate standpoint may be more frequent but in terms of impact, I would think a top 15 book failure would be more significant due to the fact that the funds in the offshore industry are more concentrated.

Using your example, how many top x% companies fail per decade? Not very many.

From my perspective, sportsbook failures mean more than corporate failures (in a relative sense of course) since:

1) when I post up at a sportbook there is an understanding that my funds should be used for my wagers ONLY not to run the business OR pay off someone requesting a withdrawal OR be stolen by management.

2) I invest in companies knowing that management uses my funds to operate the business and I may or may not get a good return on my investment. Those funds are to be used by management in any way consistent with the corporations charter and strategy. (In cases like Tyco and Enron management showed a propensity to give management lavish benefits (i.e. steal).)

In the sportsbook industry, MY MONEY SHOULD ALWAYS BE AVAILABLE TO ME AND NOT USED AS WORKING CAPITAL!!!!! But since this is NOT true, essentially, I've started to view my post ups as investments (without the return) since these bookmakers do not use escrow.

I have concluded that this is the best way to look at evaluating a book...risk/return. What is the return for more favorable lines, bonuses, improved customer service, etc. versus the risk that these ass clowns run off with my deposit.

The guys running some of these operations may be scumbags without a head for real business but I have to give it to them, when they under- capitalize their businesses and operate using deposits and a margin that they may or may not make, the post up money is like a free loan that funds the startup of their business.

It's great....they don't have to pay interest, the loan may not have to be paid back if the player loses, they don't have to give up equity in their company, and they do not have to share any profits. Gotta love the criminal mind.

Just think of any other industry and most the time you can find a top 15 in trouble every few years.

Energy = Enron, Chap. 7. Airlines= United Airlines Chap 11. Technology= Lucent & Sun Micro both have lost 98% of their value. Not recently but how about Chrysler going -up in 1980? How about today, right now, both Goodyear, Playtex and Levi's cloths are currently on the verge of bankruptcy.

Let's face it, except for a few situations you got street bookies running these big books. Some made the conversion to professional businessmen and some still think they are on the streets of Brooklyn.

Bigger IS safer but this industry operates under tremendous risks from banking in US dollars(money laundering) to the Patriot Act, to bookies who gamble(BetUs), bookies who toot, diminishing holds(profit margins), increasing costs especially player acquisition costs(marketing).

PROBABLY ALL 7 OF THE KAPLAN STEINS BOOKS! HOPEFULLY