Stock Market - Your Plans

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Do you have faith that the markets will come back to strength & supply us with good investments or is the day of trading confidently over? What are your intentions in the near future? Will you sell and bail or ride it out?

Thanks

GeneralPete@Hotmail.Com
 
Ride it out I think we are on the road to recovery.

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So I guess this is where I tell you what I learned - my conclusion, right? Well, my conclusion is: Hate is baggage. Life's too short to be pissed off all the time. It's just not worth it.
 

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Watch and listen, still think we have a ways to go down. I am holding what I have and will buy more when the market drops to fair value. /infopop/emoticons/icon_wink.gif
 
Buy...Buy..Buy Ginnie Mae

- - -
"This is the business we've chosen." - Hyman Roth

[This message was edited by FatFrank on 12-04-02 at 08:24 PM.]
 

Gunga galunga... gunga, gunga-galunga.
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Noonan will...hold on to what I got, continue to contribute to 401(k) + IRA...might dabble from time to time in a few dollar stocks like ARTG and SCON...

But no serious purchases/liquidation for now.

GL
 

Old Fart
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The Whiz kids of the 90's are gone.com!!
Be many a moon till ya see that again!
 

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I would say the old economy stocks will lead this market back.
examples: oils, consumer non durables, drugs, banks.
 

+GL+ to all on the other side
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Everbody is buying real estate here. I think I will sell what I bought when they were selling a number of years back.

I believe renting is most prudent at this time.

The public thrive on lower rates to borrow money for stocks/real estate.

I have faded the public my whole life. ( + points or +100 or higher /infopop/emoticons/icon_wink.gif )

Cash can become King much much faster than all other holdings, and possibly very shortly after the opening bell on a future historic day.

The issue USA has with terrorism will be ongoing with our grandchildren. If they nuke 'em, the markets will see unchartered territory. If they nuke 'em after the closing bell, trust me, you will be on hold for some time the following morning trying to alter your positions.

Keep maybe 3 % of net worth at books. Ya' gotta' have that action /infopop/emoticons/icon_razz.gif.

Keep maybe 3-6% on high risk stocks if you need that action.

Possible flyer on gold for 10% as the downside is limited for a hedge.

The rest in Federal short bonds. (30 days to 1 year) (if you decide to go long, you "may" be handsomely rewarded)

If the bomb is in fact deployed, the feds will have their hands full, but they will not slowpay you on the money you loaned them.

ps...and I may be all wrong /infopop/emoticons/icon_cool.gif
 

Old Fart
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If I had extra money--and wanted to play the stock market--the only stocks I would buy would be those in the Food Industry. Companies like Nabisco or General Mills, etc.

People gotta do a lot of things--but if they don't eat they don't do much else.

And Remember me when you make that first big score!
 
Dump the UA stock for sure.........

United stock

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So I guess this is where I tell you what I learned - my conclusion, right? Well, my conclusion is: Hate is baggage. Life's too short to be pissed off all the time. It's just not worth it.
 
NEW YORK (Reuters) - Get ready for a new era.

Stocks will move higher, but the gains won't be anything like investors got used to a few years back, some experts say.

In the days of the great bull market of the 1990s, investors tacked on outlandish valuations to the stocks of companies with lousy business models as Wall Street's cheerleaders said "this time it really is different." Corporate profits and dividends didn't mean a thing. Stocks could generate double-digit returns, no matter what.

Now that the market is headed into its third straight year of losses, people are brushing up on the fundamental stuff that dictates how stocks are priced. And the rich rewards of the 1990s mania may be a thing of the past.

Expect the market to chalk up lower returns for the rest of the decade, says Jeffrey Kleintop, chief investment strategist for PNC Advisors in Philadelphia.

"Stocks are likely to return 7 to 9 percent per year," he says. "These are lower-than-average returns on an absolute basis, but are in line with historical trends when adjusted for inflation."

Kleintop says the returns will come solely from earnings growth, which has historically hovered at 7 percent for the Standard & Poor's 500 companies.

DIVIDENDS BACK IN STYLE

The good news for widows and orphans who depend on quarterly checks from companies to make ends meet in times of stagnant stock markets: Dividends will again be a meaningful part of making money in the market.

"With lower absolute returns, investors and corporate leaders may once again view dividends as an effective way to return value to shareholders," Kleintop says.

During the boom days, dividend sank to the lowest level since the early 1940s. Corporate America thought dividends were dorky things. Investors didn't lose any sleep when companies canceled or slashed payouts because they were making profits of 20 percent or more each year on their stocks.

FROM HULA HOOPS TO YELLOW TIES

Going forward, there will be few great investment stories.

The technology bubble made a lot of people rich in the 1990s. That was then. The betting is techs may be dead in the water for years. During the last earnings recession in 1990 to 1991, technology companies didn't regain their pre-recession strength until 1994.

Over the past several decades, other investments have become lemons. In the 1980s, consumer stocks exploded on pent-up demand following back-to-back recessions, but they flat-lined in the 1990s. Energy stocks surged in the 1970s before imploding in the 1980s.

Barton Biggs, chief global market strategist for Morgan Stanley, says the message he got from speaking with aggressive investors is that they are bracing for low returns in virtually every major asset class for the next five to 10 years.

"Overall, it's going to be slim pickings, and large portfolios will find it very difficult to generate total returns in the years to come, of even 8 percent per annum.

"Sure, there is going to be some differentiation, so asset allocation will matter," he points out. "But double-digit asset classes are few and far between -- and illiquid."

The nastiest bear market in a generation has investors all shook up. It will take time to rebuild confidence in stocks.

For example, after the 1929 crash, the healing process took about 20 years. Some Wall Streeters believe the damage to investors' sentiment from the current bear market is nearly as bad as the aftermath of 1929.

Has the public caught on? Yes, so it would appear.

Most people have adjusted their expectations. Individual investors who have been humbled by the longest bear market since 1938 to 1942, no longer assume stocks will rise each year.

More than $7 trillion in market wealth has been lost over the past three years and the average stock mutual fund is down a whopping 50 percent or more. The third quarter of this year saw the worst returns from stock funds since the 1987 crash.

Merrill Lynch estimates investors withdrew a record of nearly $100 billion from stock funds in the five months to October. There was a measly inflow of $13 billion in November.

DARE TO BE DULL

A lot of investors are sitting in bonds or dull money markets, which have been some of the best-performing asset classes since March 2000.

Individual investors have learned that the smartest strategy is to lay out reasonable outcomes for stocks. They've concluded the possible risky outcomes are still intolerable.

The Investment Company Institute, a mutual fund trade group, says an eye-popping $2.4 trillion was parked in money market funds at the end of November.

"That's a lot of cash, considering, there's only $2.5 trillion currently invested in equity mutual funds," says James Stack, editor of InvesTech Research. "Last year, investors poured a record $376 billion into money funds, or more than twice the preceding year's contributions."

Indeed, investors have discovered the road to wealth may not always be paved with stock mutual funds. Only two of the 100 largest stock mutual funds had positive returns for the 12 months ended on Sept. 30.

If history repeats, bond funds will be a safe haven until the Federal Reserve, which has pushed interest rates down to 41-year lows, decides to raise rates. Money tightening won't happen until central bankers are reasonably confident the economy and corporate earnings can mount a sustained recovery.

The smart money is not betting the ranch that the economy's problems will simply vanish. Gross domestic product, which measures the output of all U.S. goods and services, grew by 4 percent in the third quarter. Yet the concern is fourth-quarter GDP growth may slow to 2 percent or less. The jump in the jobless rate last month to 6 percent -- the highest since the summer of 1994 -- was a signal that things are just not right in the economy.

As a result, the economy will write the script for the stock market.

The Paris-based Organization for Economic Cooperation and Development, which has a good track record, does not see a tremendous economic recovery for the United States. It projects U.S. growth at an anemic 2.6 percent next year.

You don't have to be a rocket scientist to figure it out: Flat growth in the nation's GDP is bad for corporate earnings.

For the week, the blue-chip Dow Jones industrial average .DJI fell 212 points or 2.5 percent to end at 8,433.71, based on the latest available figures. The broader Standard & Poor's 500 .SPX finished at 889.48, down 23 points or 2.5 percent. The tech-heavy Nasdaq composite index .IXIC lost 60 points or 4.2 percent to end at 1,362.42. (Pierre Belec is a free-lance writer. Any opinions expressed are those of Mr. Belec.)

GeneralPete@Hotmail.Com
 
Don't play the Stock market anymore.

It's one of the most "CORRUPT Gambling Arenas" on the planet.
 

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I bought some OEX calls for the first time this year. That probably means we are about to drop a 1000 points. /infopop/emoticons/icon_mad.gif

But I think this tax related end of the year selling is going to give way soon to some strong buying for the next 45 days. /infopop/emoticons/icon_cool.gif
 

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The picture right now is pretty clear. You had a lot of square money bidding up techs, etc. All of the 'smart'/value guys shook their heads and stepped aside. Interest rates of 4-6% didn't interest anyone in bonds/short term money markets.

But now the panic (and margin) sellers who have been forced out are looking at 1% returns on cash, and over the next 6 months they're going to have to put that money to work. Some good bits in the General's article...like mentioning dividend returns and $2.4 tril. in cash. When stocks with solid businesses pay you 4-5% each year just for holding them, and interest rates are 1%, at some point even those once burned are going to have to get back in.

The market always overdoes it...to the upside and downside. It has bottomed now. Look at ol' Warren Buffet...he's buying power capacity (despite the face that Enron was an energy company). He's clever enough to know that energy is a great cash-flow business if you don't try to be too clever about it.

And to those who say 'it took 10 years for stocks to achieve their old highs last time they fell this far' or similar...Hell, if I buy the nasdaq at 1500, and in 10 years it's worth 5000? I've done just fine, thanks. I'll take it.

Good luck to all of you with your investments.
 
in.

"Over-crowded milk carton rafts arrive on the shores of the United States they don't depart"- outandup 2002
 

Live it Up
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The 90's phony overvalued stock scam on the internet companies will never come again.

I couldn't hold back a chuckle back in the mid 90's at some of these stockbrokers trying to push these no future profitless internet companies.

The smart ones' got out way before the crash...
 

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With Main Street on Sidelines,
The Stock-Market Rally Stalls

Spooked by Scandal, Losses,
Individuals Now Play It Safe
By E.S. BROWNING and IANTHE JEANNE DUGAN
Staff Reporters of THE WALL STREET JOURNAL


David Thomas MacMillan had had enough.

So first thing last week, the 66-year-old retired Boeing marketing executive fired up the laptop computer in the bedroom of his Seattle home and started attacking his stock portfolio. Owens Corning shares were the first to go. Then, a real-estate-investment trust, then Capital One Financial, a credit-card issuer.

By the end of the week, Mr. MacMillan had sold more than $30,000 of stock and was considering more cuts before the end of the year.

For the onetime true believer, whose nest egg over the years has been 90% dependent on stocks, the change of heart has been building over months, and finally crystallized two weeks ago, when the stock market once again began to sink. "I'm gun-shy," he says. "It's hard to know what to trust right now. Everything's been lousy."

After fueling the mania when stocks were hot in the 1990s, individual investors such as Mr. MacMillan are having the opposite effect now that stocks are struggling. Burned by a collapse of the tech stocks they once adored and dispirited by the accounting and Wall Street scandals that followed, individual investors have turned into the stock market's ball and chain, holding it back, even as the pros talk about a rebound.

Rob McIntosh, a family-practice dentist in the farming community of North Jackson, Ohio, says that a 40% drop in his retirement account prompted him to stop buying new stocks entirely in recent months. "I think I'm like a lot of investors. I am just holding cash right now," says the 47-year-old, who once hoped to retire on his profits by the time he was 60. "I just don't have any confidence right now. I don't have the heart for it."

The reluctance of individual investors to buy into the market recovery comes from earlier rallies that faded, and from a general sense that efforts to clean up the system aren't really changing things much. Many professional investors have returned to the fray -- especially big hedge funds, which are private investment partnerships that tend to make risky short-term bets. But Main Street has stayed home, starving the market of momentum. That helps explain why the stock runup that ran from early October through late November, in which the benchmark Dow Jones Industrial Average rose almost 23%, couldn't be sustained. Indeed, stocks last week fell for a second consecutive week, leaving the Dow down 5.6% since it peaked the day before Thanksgiving.

Skeptics such as Mr. MacMillan and Dr. McIntosh are having a powerful impact: So far this year, U.S. stock mutual funds have received only $7 billion in net new money, down from $59 billion at this point last year and $180 billion at this point in 2000, according to figures compiled by investment strategist Thomas McManus of Banc of America Securities. That's the lowest level of new money moving into stock funds in more than a decade. Investors in September and October took more money out of stock funds than they put in, according to the Investment Company Institute, a mutual-fund trade group.

Individuals are putting more money not only into bonds but also into simple cash accounts, despite the paltry interest payments those accounts pay. Bond funds have pulled in $126 billion so far this year, the highest level of bond-fund investment in more than a decade. And according to a study by New York brokerage firm Miller Tabak & Co., individual investors have more money in cash than usual. They have about 12% of their combined holdings of cash, money funds and stocks in either cash or money funds. That is the highest cash level in a decade, and more than twice the level at the height of the bull market in March 2000, when investors were heavily invested in stocks.

'Just a Casino'

The exodus of Main Street money has many pros nervous about when -- and to what extent -- they will return. "I worry about bringing the individual investor back," says David Briggs, head of stock trading at Pittsburgh mutual-fund group Federated Investors. "The more we jerk people around, the more you hear comments like, 'This is just a casino, it is rigged against us, I don't want to own stocks.' "

That leaves mostly professional money managers in the market, especially hedge funds and other speculators who move rapidly in and out of investments they think will perform the best over short periods. "About the only thing that is driving it in my opinion is aggressive professionals like hedge funds," says Phil Roth, chief technical analyst at Miller Tabak. "Those guys have no staying power. They will run for the hills as soon as they see a sign of weakness."

Hedge funds this year have come to represent a growing share of stock-market volume. As a rough estimate, Mr. Roth points to program trading -- computer-driven trading that typically involves a large group of stocks being traded at the same time. Hedge funds are heavy users of program trading, and program trading has accounted for more and more of total volume, Mr. Roth says. Based on figures from the New York Stock exchange, program trading now accounts for about one-third of all trades, Mr. Roth notes, up sharply from 23% last year.

Analysts say they also can see hedge funds' fingerprints on the kinds of stocks that are gaining the most. Many are faded stars such as Nortel Networks, Corning and Lucent Technologies, which many money managers fear have little immediate prospect for a business recovery and are going up mainly because bottom-fishing hedge funds are betting on a short-term pop. That could make it hard for the current rally to continue.

"It took the public years of witnessing a bull market to get excited about stocks and it will take that again now," Mr. Roth says. "We will have to see months of a bull market before the public decides to move money back to stocks."

Many analysts date the disaffection with stocks to the corporate scandals that intensified last summer, when investors watched televised images of government agents leading corporate chiefs away in handcuffs. It was all too much for Ted Gorman, the owner of a Winterset, Iowa, newspaper. He blew a gasket this summer over the corporate corruption -- and also over the declines in some of his utility stocks, which he had considered safe. Mr. Gorman owned stock in American Electric Power Co., a utility that seemed solid until Enron Corp. melted down and a series of power-trading scandals slashed stock values.

"It was like AT&T or GM, a safe stock," he says. But from mid-April through mid-October, that safe stock dropped 60%. "It was like watching your house burn down," he says.

Now, after 20 years of investing, he has pulled out.

"I am on the sidelines," says Mr. Gorman, 48. He sold most of his stocks and mutual funds, as well as stocks and funds owned by his aging mother -- a portfolio that he figures was valued at around $400,000 in all.

He says that even the bump in stocks since October hasn't restored his confidence in a market he now considers dishonest. "People are falling for the hype, the salesmanship," Mr. Gorman says. "I am a hard-core Republican. But I am pretty disappointed in Wall Street, their ethics, their conduct, their living high on the hog."

There's a danger that if investors wait too long to get back into stocks, they will miss out on the opportunity to buy shares on the cheap -- a mirror image of what happened during the boom, when many investors delayed getting into the market until its peak.

Some longtime money managers look back nervously to the 1970s, when a stock bubble followed by a series of failed rallies disillusioned many ordinary people, who gave up on stocks for at least a generation.

"It is going to take time -- a period of months -- to get the public to do any buying," says Alfred Kugel, senior investment strategist at Chicago investment-management firm Stein Roe Investment Counsel, who has been in the business since 1953. In the late 1970s, double-digit interest rates made bank deposits a real alternative to stocks. Today, interest rates are below 2% and some money funds are losing money, when fees and taxes are taken into account. Although some people are switching to real estate, Mr. Kugel thinks disillusioned investors will find few alternatives and gradually will begin returning to stocks, making this decade different than the 1970s.

"I think it will be easier to tempt them back in," he says.

A number of stock analysts, including Mr. Kugel and Mr. McManus of Banc of America Securities, think the recent rally can continue into the new year despite the tepid Main Street response, as long as the economic recovery holds up.

Tiptoeing Back

And some individual investors are tip-toeing back. But it tends to be in halting steps, at best. Many investors are simply frozen -- not doing much more selling, but not buying any new stocks either. "I know so many people whose portfolios were wiped out and couldn't get back into the market if they wanted to," says Kevin Sullivan, a 45-year-old computer-software writer in West Newbury, Mass.

Mr. Sullivan is among the investors hanging on -- though just barely. After selling tens of thousands of dollars in tech stocks, Mr. Sullivan has kept a few blue chips, such as Johnson & Johnson and General Electric. But he says he plans to buy no more.

"I'm going to lay low for a while," he says. "Even though the market seems like it's doing better, I don't trust it. It seems like every day there's a new major corporation that has some type of accounting irregularity. It makes me feel uncomfortable."

Mr. Sullivan was doing so well in the stock market for a while that he thought he would retire by age 50. He didn't use a broker; he could pick a stock and it would go up. He even made some money on initial public offerings, such as Linux and Red Hat.

"Now, I'm looking at retiring at age 70 or 75," he says.

What most unsettles professional analysts is that Mr. Sullivan and many others like him say it will take a long time for their wounds to heal. Some people who began investing during the boom say it's since become clear that they are cogs in a much bigger machine, and one that doesn't always reflect their interest.

For that to change, individual investors say they'll need to see a more sustained recovery in solid, blue-chip stocks, not just a short-term rally led by volatile tech shares.

Dr. McIntosh, the Ohio dentist, says he and his wife might be willing to venture gradually into stocks again someday, but "I probably would not do anything in the tech market at all right now."

As recently as last year he was still hopeful of recovering his losses, but no longer. "I really tried to feel, 'Hey, wait a second, these are really great companies. They should recover,' " he says. "But none of them survived. All of them took the same beating one by one."

Write to E.S. Browning at jim.browning@wsj.com and Ianthe Jeanne Dugan at ianthe.dugan@wsj.com

Updated December 16, 2002
 

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