A couple of weeks ago, either General or the Shrink (I think it was one of them...but I forget which) posted a message encouraging people to post POSITIVE experiences with books, instead of just whining when things went bad.
I thought that was a good idea. As helpful as complaints about books are in determining whether a book is worth spending your hard-earned (or hard-gambled) to, accounts of people's positive experiences can also be reinforcing and helpful in ascertaining which is the best out for your money.
So I took it upon myself, over the past several weeks, to post up with several books that are well regarded both by SBR and the Rx, and give a brief summary of my assessment.
Who am I to judge? Not really an expert or an insider by any means, but I do have about five and a half years of offshore experience, posted up with large sums (up to five dimes), and made frequent withdrawals and customer service inquiries, so I could see how these places operate.
So without further adieu...
Sirbet -- Positives and negatives. Ups and downs. Fine if you keep to sportsbetting only: they pay fast (within a few hours, generally, although accounting isn't open 24 hours) and with no hassle, which I consider to be absolutely vital. I love the fact that you can enter a withdrawal request online and have your $ in your Neteller within a short period of time, without having to actually speak to a clerk who whines and bitches and asks why you're pulling your money out. Minor quibble: The system will log you out if you're inactive for about 5 minutes...a security feature, I suppose...but slightly more than a minor inconvenience.
The big negative with Sirbet came for me when I played their casino, as some of you may remember from the thread I posted about it here a few weeks back. Over the course of about 600+ hands, I made close to 20 dimes playing blackjack. I start requesting withdrawals, and WHAM, in the course of one afternoon, and an eerily similar number of hands, $14K disappears. Is that mathematically possible? Sure, it's conceivable, but considering the vast discrepancy in success between pre- and post-final withdrawal, it's highly, highly unlikely. When you consider how easy it probably is for these guys to manipulate the software, I think there's sufficient circumstantial evidence to say it's not a fair game. I emailed Corby, and politely, without malice or direct accusation, asked him to verify the accuracy of the game. I got a form letter in return. I wrote again, asking again -- politely -- for some proof that the game was fair, and never got a response. I'll never send them a penny again.
One other CS problem arose when I was given a reload bonus on one of my deposits. Sirbet doesn't normally give reloads, but in this case they agreed to give me 10% (on a lousy $300 deposit) provided a complied with a 5x rollover. They even noted in my account (viewable from my side) that it was a 'special' bonus and I had to fulfill a 5x. I complied, and tried to pull out after doing so. CS refused my withdrawal request, because somewhere ELSE on the site it said that all initial deposit bonuses are subject to a higher rollover requirement. Even though they specifically and explicitly notated my account with my special 'reload' requirement, they tried to hold me to an INITIAL deposit rollover and not pay me the money. And all over a lousy $30! Corby eventually intervened, apologized for the shenanigans, and paid me the $$$, but who needs all the hassle?
Overall: THUMBS DOWN. Sirbet will pay, but they definitely play dirty. Too many better options out there.
Gameday -- The *BEST* of the sites I surveyed, in my opinion. Manager was willing to grant a deposit bonus on 20% of my initial deposit even though I deposited close to 5 dimes, and thus qualified for a much higher bonus than they normally grant. The software, which is the same as Sirbet's, is LIGHTNING quick. Games are settled seconds after they end, payouts are within a few hours with absolutely ZERO hassle on the phone (they do it with a smile) and there's none of that timing out and logging out crap. I don't like the fact that your account # is a 10-digit number instead of something you make up but that's a VERY minor quibble. Overall, excellent CS, fast payouts, dime line in bases, and a funky option called index wagering...like the futures market...it's exciting, it's different, and you can lose your shirt on it, but it's a helluva lot of fun.
Of course, given the fact that they use the same software, I had to try out their blackjack. I played a LOT of hands (don't have the exact numbers in front of me, but I can look them up) but this game seemed MUCH, MUCH fairer than Sirbet's. And that has nothing to do with the bottom line: I ended up with about 7 dimes of profit from Sirbet's crooked game, and broke about even (maybe even lost a couple hundred) on Gameday's. But with Gameday, it just 'feels' right...the streaks, the winning, the losing...there's no winning $20K in 600 hands and losing most of it back in the next 600 ridiculousness that I experienced with Sirbet. Felt much more like what you'd expect in a real casino (not that I frequent them places much..
and I say that in spite of the fact that I ended up even/losing...
Overall: THUMBS UP. Way the hell up. Good job Gameday.
Las Palmas -- Not too hot. 20 cent line in baseball, confusing software that doesn't display all the available lines and doesn't at all make it obvious that there are more lines to be viewed...had to play with it till I discovered that I was missing out on some opportunities. CS had the audacity to ask me *WHY* I was asking for a payout (F*CK OFF!), even though I complied with rollover requirements, and I hate that sound of disdain in their voice when I ask for MY MONEY. CS was also non-responsive when I asked for clarification about a bet I thought I made that didn't end up showing up in my pending bets...I conceded that the mistake was probably mine, that I probably forgot to click a confirmation button (first day with their software) but I just asked them to look into the records and see what I did wrong, if anything. They promised to contact me the next day, and didn't. Not the kind of CS I expect. Along the same lines, I tried to process a payout online, and the next day I see 'declined' in my Neteller. No email from Las Palmas, no phone call, no nothing. I call up, and they put the withdrawal through...but why play games?
Overall: Thumbs down. There are better options elsewhere.
Canbet -- Not part of my recent test, but I have such extensive experience with them I figured I'd throw them in too. From 1998 to 2002, Canbet was my primary, and at times, exclusive out. I lost so much money to them that I wrote to them after they revamped their website, putting in that ugly orange and blue scheme they've had going for a couple years, and complained that as the primary financier for the new design, I wasn't happy that I wasn't consulted about the choice of colors!
I always like Canbet because the phone lines were clear, the software quick and no-frills, the lines excellent, and fast bank-to-bank transfers in the days before Neteller. And they spoke English! That was always a plus.
Then, there was the downer...as I posted here some time ago, I started making a good deal of money in the 2001-2002 NBA campaign. The gig was good for a few months, but then Canbet started deleting my wagers and cut my limits down to zero (apparently, Australian law prohibits kicking a punter out entirely if they can't prove any wrongdoing?). I complained to the Australian Gambling Commission, who ruled that while Canbet 'probably' did delete some winning wagers, they were within their right, because of an obscure understanding of a rule in the Gambling Act. (McIrish has seen the report). I'm still fighting them...and they'll never see a dime from me again.
Overall: Thumbs down. If you lose, or don't win too much, and don't mind the lack of props, Canbet IS an excellent option...friendly operators who speak damn English! But they don't like successful players, and they will resort to some shady tactics to beat them. Maybe that's why they moved to England? Are the laws less stringent?
Jazz -- Not a huge fan of the proprietary software...it works, but if you're using a computer other than your home one when placing wagers (as I often am) it's a pain. Bets are graded fast, props are limited, lines are excellent. Minor quibble: I accidentaly tried withdrawing just before completing the rollover, and it was declined (as it should be) but, as with Las Palmas, no email, no phone call, just a "declined" in my Neteller. Seems to be unusual for them though: my dealings with their CS have been pleasant and excellent.
Overall: Thumbs up. Haven't processed a successful withdrawal yet, but I'm not expecting a problem. Place seems solid.
AllWorld -- Just posted up with them. Limited action so far, haven't processed a withdrawal yet. Rollover requirement is high (8x!) but they said that's a requirement only during the promotional period, when they're offering 10% (instead of the usual 10%/5x requirement). CS seems friendly and knowledgeable. I find the fact that their greeting when they pick up the phone is "Hello?" rather than "Sportsbook" or "Customer Service" etc. to be funny...it's as though there's someone in the room listening to their conversation, and they don't want it to be known that they're booking bets. (Haven't we all been there? On the phone discreetly placing a bet when suddenly the girlfriend/boss/friend comes into the room and you have to play it all casual, as if you're having a conversation with your plant feeder?)
Overall: Inconclusive, but I don't expect any probs, and lean towards thumbs up.
Sportbet -- An absolute mess of an operation. Clerks who don't know what the hell they're doing...look at these two real conversations (paraphrase):
Me: Hi, do you have any prop bets on the Yankees/Orioles game?
Clerk: Yes sir, it's Yankees -135, 7 over a quarter.
Me: No, I asked if you had any PROP bets on the Yankees/Orioles game.
Clerk: Any what?
Me: Any props, PROPS on the game?
Clerk: No, I'm sorry sir.
Me: Yes you do! Props...like team to score first??
Clerk: Oh, you mean proposition bets. Yes, we have them.
Another conversation:
Me: Hi, what's the line on player to get most RBI's in the Rockies/Dodgers game?
Clerk: Sorry sir, we have no such bet available.
Me: Yes you do! It's the seventh bet among the proposition bets listed for that game.
Clerk: Oh, you mean player to get more Rib-Eyes...yes, we have that.
Another conversation:
Me: Hi, what's the line on total number of hits, runs and errors in the Blue Jays/Devil Rays game?
Clerk: I'm sorry sir, we have no such line.
Me: Yes you do! Most hits, runs and errors is the third bet among the props for that game listed on the website.
Clerk: I'm sorry sir, we have no such line. The third bet is for most runs, hits and errors,
(not hits, runs and errors).
Argh!!! This stuff really happened (or stuff close to it
On top of that, the CS people are rude, payout requests NEVER work, you have to make a million phone calls and ask a thousand times, then your account has to go through audits and all kinds of crap. The one saving grace, of course, is Jake...a regular poster here who is the best, most cordial and professional general manager I've ever seen in any book. He's extraordinarily helpful, but his intervention should not be required to process every damn withdrawal. This place would've fallen apart long ago without him, and may do so even with his presence.
Overall: Thumbs down. The place has got to clean up shop and retrain everyone from the top down.
Pinnacle -- The only other out I've used on-and-off for a number of years. Sad to say, I've *never* requested a withdrawal from them, so I can't give any details about that...but this book is so sharp, the lines so excellent, the grading so quick, the site so streamlined, and the reviews by everyone else so excellent that I can't imagine there would ever be a problem. A first rate shop.
Overall: Huge thumbs up.
I thought that was a good idea. As helpful as complaints about books are in determining whether a book is worth spending your hard-earned (or hard-gambled) to, accounts of people's positive experiences can also be reinforcing and helpful in ascertaining which is the best out for your money.
So I took it upon myself, over the past several weeks, to post up with several books that are well regarded both by SBR and the Rx, and give a brief summary of my assessment.
Who am I to judge? Not really an expert or an insider by any means, but I do have about five and a half years of offshore experience, posted up with large sums (up to five dimes), and made frequent withdrawals and customer service inquiries, so I could see how these places operate.
So without further adieu...
Sirbet -- Positives and negatives. Ups and downs. Fine if you keep to sportsbetting only: they pay fast (within a few hours, generally, although accounting isn't open 24 hours) and with no hassle, which I consider to be absolutely vital. I love the fact that you can enter a withdrawal request online and have your $ in your Neteller within a short period of time, without having to actually speak to a clerk who whines and bitches and asks why you're pulling your money out. Minor quibble: The system will log you out if you're inactive for about 5 minutes...a security feature, I suppose...but slightly more than a minor inconvenience.
The big negative with Sirbet came for me when I played their casino, as some of you may remember from the thread I posted about it here a few weeks back. Over the course of about 600+ hands, I made close to 20 dimes playing blackjack. I start requesting withdrawals, and WHAM, in the course of one afternoon, and an eerily similar number of hands, $14K disappears. Is that mathematically possible? Sure, it's conceivable, but considering the vast discrepancy in success between pre- and post-final withdrawal, it's highly, highly unlikely. When you consider how easy it probably is for these guys to manipulate the software, I think there's sufficient circumstantial evidence to say it's not a fair game. I emailed Corby, and politely, without malice or direct accusation, asked him to verify the accuracy of the game. I got a form letter in return. I wrote again, asking again -- politely -- for some proof that the game was fair, and never got a response. I'll never send them a penny again.
One other CS problem arose when I was given a reload bonus on one of my deposits. Sirbet doesn't normally give reloads, but in this case they agreed to give me 10% (on a lousy $300 deposit) provided a complied with a 5x rollover. They even noted in my account (viewable from my side) that it was a 'special' bonus and I had to fulfill a 5x. I complied, and tried to pull out after doing so. CS refused my withdrawal request, because somewhere ELSE on the site it said that all initial deposit bonuses are subject to a higher rollover requirement. Even though they specifically and explicitly notated my account with my special 'reload' requirement, they tried to hold me to an INITIAL deposit rollover and not pay me the money. And all over a lousy $30! Corby eventually intervened, apologized for the shenanigans, and paid me the $$$, but who needs all the hassle?
Overall: THUMBS DOWN. Sirbet will pay, but they definitely play dirty. Too many better options out there.
Gameday -- The *BEST* of the sites I surveyed, in my opinion. Manager was willing to grant a deposit bonus on 20% of my initial deposit even though I deposited close to 5 dimes, and thus qualified for a much higher bonus than they normally grant. The software, which is the same as Sirbet's, is LIGHTNING quick. Games are settled seconds after they end, payouts are within a few hours with absolutely ZERO hassle on the phone (they do it with a smile) and there's none of that timing out and logging out crap. I don't like the fact that your account # is a 10-digit number instead of something you make up but that's a VERY minor quibble. Overall, excellent CS, fast payouts, dime line in bases, and a funky option called index wagering...like the futures market...it's exciting, it's different, and you can lose your shirt on it, but it's a helluva lot of fun.
Of course, given the fact that they use the same software, I had to try out their blackjack. I played a LOT of hands (don't have the exact numbers in front of me, but I can look them up) but this game seemed MUCH, MUCH fairer than Sirbet's. And that has nothing to do with the bottom line: I ended up with about 7 dimes of profit from Sirbet's crooked game, and broke about even (maybe even lost a couple hundred) on Gameday's. But with Gameday, it just 'feels' right...the streaks, the winning, the losing...there's no winning $20K in 600 hands and losing most of it back in the next 600 ridiculousness that I experienced with Sirbet. Felt much more like what you'd expect in a real casino (not that I frequent them places much..
Overall: THUMBS UP. Way the hell up. Good job Gameday.
Las Palmas -- Not too hot. 20 cent line in baseball, confusing software that doesn't display all the available lines and doesn't at all make it obvious that there are more lines to be viewed...had to play with it till I discovered that I was missing out on some opportunities. CS had the audacity to ask me *WHY* I was asking for a payout (F*CK OFF!), even though I complied with rollover requirements, and I hate that sound of disdain in their voice when I ask for MY MONEY. CS was also non-responsive when I asked for clarification about a bet I thought I made that didn't end up showing up in my pending bets...I conceded that the mistake was probably mine, that I probably forgot to click a confirmation button (first day with their software) but I just asked them to look into the records and see what I did wrong, if anything. They promised to contact me the next day, and didn't. Not the kind of CS I expect. Along the same lines, I tried to process a payout online, and the next day I see 'declined' in my Neteller. No email from Las Palmas, no phone call, no nothing. I call up, and they put the withdrawal through...but why play games?
Overall: Thumbs down. There are better options elsewhere.
Canbet -- Not part of my recent test, but I have such extensive experience with them I figured I'd throw them in too. From 1998 to 2002, Canbet was my primary, and at times, exclusive out. I lost so much money to them that I wrote to them after they revamped their website, putting in that ugly orange and blue scheme they've had going for a couple years, and complained that as the primary financier for the new design, I wasn't happy that I wasn't consulted about the choice of colors!
Then, there was the downer...as I posted here some time ago, I started making a good deal of money in the 2001-2002 NBA campaign. The gig was good for a few months, but then Canbet started deleting my wagers and cut my limits down to zero (apparently, Australian law prohibits kicking a punter out entirely if they can't prove any wrongdoing?). I complained to the Australian Gambling Commission, who ruled that while Canbet 'probably' did delete some winning wagers, they were within their right, because of an obscure understanding of a rule in the Gambling Act. (McIrish has seen the report). I'm still fighting them...and they'll never see a dime from me again.
Overall: Thumbs down. If you lose, or don't win too much, and don't mind the lack of props, Canbet IS an excellent option...friendly operators who speak damn English! But they don't like successful players, and they will resort to some shady tactics to beat them. Maybe that's why they moved to England? Are the laws less stringent?
Jazz -- Not a huge fan of the proprietary software...it works, but if you're using a computer other than your home one when placing wagers (as I often am) it's a pain. Bets are graded fast, props are limited, lines are excellent. Minor quibble: I accidentaly tried withdrawing just before completing the rollover, and it was declined (as it should be) but, as with Las Palmas, no email, no phone call, just a "declined" in my Neteller. Seems to be unusual for them though: my dealings with their CS have been pleasant and excellent.
Overall: Thumbs up. Haven't processed a successful withdrawal yet, but I'm not expecting a problem. Place seems solid.
AllWorld -- Just posted up with them. Limited action so far, haven't processed a withdrawal yet. Rollover requirement is high (8x!) but they said that's a requirement only during the promotional period, when they're offering 10% (instead of the usual 10%/5x requirement). CS seems friendly and knowledgeable. I find the fact that their greeting when they pick up the phone is "Hello?" rather than "Sportsbook" or "Customer Service" etc. to be funny...it's as though there's someone in the room listening to their conversation, and they don't want it to be known that they're booking bets. (Haven't we all been there? On the phone discreetly placing a bet when suddenly the girlfriend/boss/friend comes into the room and you have to play it all casual, as if you're having a conversation with your plant feeder?)
Overall: Inconclusive, but I don't expect any probs, and lean towards thumbs up.
Sportbet -- An absolute mess of an operation. Clerks who don't know what the hell they're doing...look at these two real conversations (paraphrase):
Me: Hi, do you have any prop bets on the Yankees/Orioles game?
Clerk: Yes sir, it's Yankees -135, 7 over a quarter.
Me: No, I asked if you had any PROP bets on the Yankees/Orioles game.
Clerk: Any what?
Me: Any props, PROPS on the game?
Clerk: No, I'm sorry sir.
Me: Yes you do! Props...like team to score first??
Clerk: Oh, you mean proposition bets. Yes, we have them.
Another conversation:
Me: Hi, what's the line on player to get most RBI's in the Rockies/Dodgers game?
Clerk: Sorry sir, we have no such bet available.
Me: Yes you do! It's the seventh bet among the proposition bets listed for that game.
Clerk: Oh, you mean player to get more Rib-Eyes...yes, we have that.
Another conversation:
Me: Hi, what's the line on total number of hits, runs and errors in the Blue Jays/Devil Rays game?
Clerk: I'm sorry sir, we have no such line.
Me: Yes you do! Most hits, runs and errors is the third bet among the props for that game listed on the website.
Clerk: I'm sorry sir, we have no such line. The third bet is for most runs, hits and errors,
(not hits, runs and errors).
Argh!!! This stuff really happened (or stuff close to it
Overall: Thumbs down. The place has got to clean up shop and retrain everyone from the top down.
Pinnacle -- The only other out I've used on-and-off for a number of years. Sad to say, I've *never* requested a withdrawal from them, so I can't give any details about that...but this book is so sharp, the lines so excellent, the grading so quick, the site so streamlined, and the reviews by everyone else so excellent that I can't imagine there would ever be a problem. A first rate shop.
Overall: Huge thumbs up.
