PLAYER vs BOOK - Opinions please.......

This is BSKiller versus Blockbusterbets. I have been in contact with both parties and this is the case from both sides best I can tell. At this point Blockbusterbets has over $7000 of the players money held because they believe he is involved in fraudalent activities. They believe two different accounts playing through them is actually one person behind it - BSKiller. The player of course denies it. Here are the issues involved which lead the book to this conclusion.


The Book's case.....


- The book shows one wager where the two accounts bet opposite sides of the same games, "middling lines" they call it. Also what made them suspicious is these bets were by far the largest of any wagers either of the two accounts had made since playing there.

- The book claims it is the same guy but can't get any IP proof as the player calls in on one of his accounts and only phones on the other. They maintain this is done deliberately as the player is one and the same and this is how he hides the fact that he is operating both accounts from the same computer.

- The book also mentions that this same guy has been involved in about three other cases concerning books and just feels there is something fishy going on here. In fact the person who brought the player to them told the book to be on the look out.


The Player's side......


- As far as the first item betting different sides the player feels that is wrong. First he claims since it is two different accounts what sort of "evidence" is this to take his money? If anyone has a brother or sister and bets the other side of a game does that give the book rights to take your money? He also points out that the two accounts LOST money on the game the book is using as evidence. How can it be a scam? To date this one game is the only game they show that the two accounts have both bet on.

- As far as the IP addy and making the phone calls, the bettor claims again he is making plays over the internet but his brother calls in as his bets are larger. Had he known he had to "prove" anything he would/could use his computer or prove there are two individuals.


McIrish


I posted this as I heard both sdes and thought it would be quicker to get it out. The book does not have time to answer every allegation in the threads, in addition English is not the players first language. I tried to present both sides so we can reach a conclusion. Obviously both of them can come in and make corrections if this is not correct.

For me I spoke with Mike and FWIW he was very professional on the phone. He feels strongly he is right about this but he did not close the door on discussing it. I give him credit for that. He agreed to see what others are thinking so I wanted to post this here. He did not commit to paying this player but he did not rule it out either. This is a serious issue guys and it affects all of us. I hope as posters we can weigh in on what we think here. It is clear this player has had several "disputes" with books in the past but how much can a book use that down the road? Frankly the pure "evidence" is weak to me even though the book could be right, the player(s) was up to no good. What concerns me is any book can read about players who have had disputes and one day seize their account as well based solely on this? For that reason please give us your thoughts, truly I'd like to see the issue resolved fairly one way or another. Thanks.

Simple question: was this 'middle' won by the players?

Jazz - the game the two accounts were "middling lines" actually lost a couple hundred bucks. I asked Mike about that too but he said it could have easily went the other way, "would have been a nice pay-out had the dog won". Don't have a better answer for you than that.

Looking through the histroy, BSKiller is....BS. Regardless, the book don't really seem to have conclusive evidence if you ask me. It's all speculation. I think they should pay him/them and boot there asses out.

Given your answer, Pat, and the lack of overwhelming evidence, I agree with Valdosta - pay him/them and boot him/them.

Is "middling lines" forbidden?

"If the IP don't fit, you must acquit"

I'll say these/this two/one person(e) was/were pretty clever in their/his handling of this - the book needs to figure out how to prevent this in the future, for sure. How? Hell, I don't know, I'm only the piano player.

acw: the question is, was there more than one player involved in placing those bets? If so, who gives a damn if they tried a middle, if the book doesn't like it, they'd boot them anyway - they're wanting to hold onto the balance on suspicion of fraud, I just don't think they've got enough evidence. Yet.

Just another case of a book assuming they have a "license to steal." A crook book would only do this. Players play by the books rules and the books lines and the books limits, etc. The book is criminal to even think they can seize $7,000.

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Patrick McIrish:
Jazz - the game the two accounts were "middling lines" actually lost a couple hundred bucks. I asked Mike about that too but he said it could have easily went the other way, "would have been a nice pay-out had the dog won". Don't have a better answer for you than that.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Pat:

I don't think it's appropriate to post all the math, but keep in mind that this book (if I remember correctly) was offering a 40% bonus. As such, there was probably well in excess of $3,000 given in bonuses.

This bet was essentially a break-even scalp (it would have won $250 if it won, but instead it lost about $200 since it lost). Keep in mind however, that this bet (totalling $7,000 on the two sides combined) went a long ways towards satisfying rollover requirements on over $3,000 in bonuses in two separate accounts. Not only that, the account on the losing end of this bet probably could have reloaded for a brand new bonus.

Pat, I think you know what I'm getting at - a bet like that, involving 2 accounts betting both sides of the game to rollover the bonuses, is far more than simply a $200 loss on a scalp.

If there were no bonuses involved, this would simply be a fukked-up scalp for a $200 loss. But given the fact that there were bonus rollovers and reload bonuses involved, the dynamics of this type of bet/scalp are totally different than if bonuses weren't involved.

The "whole" of this bet is far more than "the sum of its parts".

[This message was edited by Halifax on September 12, 2003 at 11:26 PM.]

I agree with the above posters that the evidence against the player is too weak to confiscate his money. This leads me to another problem. Books are always asking for posters to sign up friends. I'm very reluctant to do this for the very accusation that this book has made. What happens if I pound one side of a game and later a friend living in the same town happens to pound the other side of the game because of a line move. Neither of us may have knowledge of the others play but because we live in the same town can the book claim somehow that this is fraudulant play?

Back to the question at hand, what to do about it ?

If I were the book, I would SUBTRACT ALL BONUSES AND FEES paid to both accounts, and refund the remaining balances.

Then, I would boot them, and for the sake of the industry as a whole, I would make sure that these guys' names get top spot on the scammer/shitlist that is distributed amongst the sportsbooks (if indeed such a list exists).

raiders: damn good point (Hali made one too) - that's EXACTLY why I will not accept referrals - I don't need to be suspected of collusion when there is absolutely none there, based on a line move pound by a friend.

Halifax - about the scalping stuff, I brought this up so we can hear both sides. I'm just answering the questions that I can. From what I heard (and I believe this was confirmed by Mike) the player BSKller has a grand total of $375 dollars of bonus money in his account. That's it. I get more than that when I send money to books. This one "decision" is a huge piece out of that if they are doing all this for the bonus money, wouldn't you agree?

Look I've not completely made up my mind, no doubt this guy is always involved in this stuff. But to present one game as "proof" to take that much money seems harsh to me. Especially when the game presented as the evidence was a loss for the player. I'd feel much more comfortable if there was more to it than this. Once we okay taking players money it may be a tough faucet to turn off. I mentioned above I do not think this book is looking for a reason to steal, I believe they are interested in doing the right thing here. In fact they may have thought they did but are willing to listen to other opinions, that's why we are here. Just to me they need to produce something other than that game as their case in all this. That's where my thoughts lay right now.

As mentioned above, I would take back the fees and bonuses, and boot them.

Even taking it at face value as BSKiller put it forth, you've got two brothers with virtually identical names, living at the same place, playing at a little-known book, both accepting large bonuses, and playing both sides of a game at least once.

This, for me, would be easily enough to take back the bonuses and kick them out.

Guys,

I will answer all the doubts and also got no problem to present proof(we are two individual, and live at different town)

My brother went to bed, and i,m also very tired, because i did not sleep for the whole night, now is 11.34am iver my side, but i will still stay online until i cannot take it anymore. I start to anwer all the question.

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Halifax:
As mentioned above, I would take back the fees and bonuses, and boot them.

Even taking it at face value as BSKiller put it forth, you've got two brothers with virtually identical names, playing at a little-known book, both accepting large bonuses, and playing both sides of a game at least once.

This, for me, would be easily enough to take back the bonuses.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>


I agree, I wouldn't have a problem with this either.

Guys, please repeat your question or boubts, i Do not know where to start. but do it one by one, i can't handler all in one time. thanks.

BSkiller- Have you had problems with other books or is this the only one?

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by BSkiller:
Guys, please repeat your question or boubts, i Do not know where to start. but do it one by one, i can't handler all in one time. thanks.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Unless I said something wrong, go to bed. You are doing better than your wildest dreams by staying away.