I personally hate the idea, as I have said before my problem with regulation isn't regulation in itself but what would be the obvious implications. The smart people realize the problems with this and its real simple. Our vision of regulated gaming and that of governments is completely different! To the government this industry is a piggybank, they will work it like a girl in the Del Rey, no doubt about it. They will offer horrible games with no way to beat them (parlay cards with 6-1 payoffs for 4 teamers wouldn't shock me) for the sports bettors. They won't allow individual game betting as they just can't make enough money doing that, not to mention the horror they would deal with if they ever had losing days or weeks. Morons in the lottery administration would be talking about how they NEVER lost state money with their game and that would be that. Even worse, once the states get on the pipe, so to speak, and start depending on these dollars they will go to no end to protect them so if we dared play anything else and jeopardized their money we would be in the crosshairs of law enforcement. After all the real squares, the guys out to just get their gamble on would accept crappy games or just casino games, there would be a lot of happy fools out there and they would drown out the pissed off bettors that try to actually win.
Wild Bill:
You're one of the most respected posters, imo, on this forum.
Aside from the points you made here, it's real simple.
Politicians love regulation. Sure they try to sell it as "consumer protection", but in the end it's all about their being able to levy taxes - both on the books and all winning tickets.
Regulation = taxes.
You're one of the most respected posters, imo, on this forum.
Aside from the points you made here, it's real simple.
Politicians love regulation. Sure they try to sell it as "consumer protection", but in the end it's all about their being able to levy taxes - both on the books and all winning tickets.
Regulation = taxes.
I am sure it will happen eventually, just too much money for the Gov to pass up.
I am just hoping for the best, and, expecting the worst.
Regardless, i will continue using Offshores until it is more or less impossible.
The less the US Gov. is involved in my personal life and habits, the happier i will be.
I am just hoping for the best, and, expecting the worst.
Regardless, i will continue using Offshores until it is more or less impossible.
The less the US Gov. is involved in my personal life and habits, the happier i will be.
Also don't forget about the "job creation" BS they love to talk about. They will use this as a weapon both ways. They will talk about how many jobs they can put into a desperate area and "recover" a job going to someone in CR, where they get no tax revenue. Then when its up and running they will use the job protection argument to justify going after all operations not done under their watch. Let me tell you we hear that one in Vegas all the time. If anything done even smacks of costing casino revenue then every politico in town is against it. Lets just say if a few casinos decided they wanted into the stripper business and opened clubs in house, there would be an almost instant run in with Cheetahs and Crazy Horse and all the others. They would make something up or get them on nitpicky things, but they would cloak it all with the concept of "protecting jobs and revenues".
WildBill,
You are absolutely correct in this regulating. This is what has happened here in all Nordic Countries. Denmark, Finland, Norway and Sweden and now Holland might be the next one in Europe.
We have had couple law cases in EU about this and because national interest goes before EU citizen, these things takes a lot of time to change.
Because I have plans to go into this business I have contacted Ministry of Interior here, but just got same BS as I have read from papers. Only exception was that they admit this might create new jobs, but nothing else. They always say that if Finland allows competition in this business it would affect on National Lotto and it might be gone soon. Yes, it affects on it a little bit, but people won't never stop dreaming about Lotto jackpots.
Finnish citizens could bet with Finnish companies witout sending money offshores, people from abroad might bet with these companies, companies would pay taxes and create some jobs, but no.
Now the situation here is that people bet more and more offshore and also gambles at online casinos (I want to keep betting and gambling separated).
My opinion is that goverments should run Lotto and casinos, because basically they are money machines. Las Vegas faces severe competition, thats why casinos might collaps. Problem might be that goverment probably would change payouts to a lower level.
In England a private company runs their Lotto, this is one of the absurds thing I know. How can they lose?? Giving back 45% of every unit staked in winnings is free money for owners.
Internet casinos owned by Goverment, why not. I think people trust them more than those offshore casinos. Deposits and withdrawals would be easy to complete. I don't personally trust software based casinos, but that's not the issue.
I want to get into sportsbetting business, not gambling or Lotto. Goverment can keep those.
[This message was edited by Faceless on June 29, 2003 at 04:50 AM.]
You are absolutely correct in this regulating. This is what has happened here in all Nordic Countries. Denmark, Finland, Norway and Sweden and now Holland might be the next one in Europe.
We have had couple law cases in EU about this and because national interest goes before EU citizen, these things takes a lot of time to change.
Because I have plans to go into this business I have contacted Ministry of Interior here, but just got same BS as I have read from papers. Only exception was that they admit this might create new jobs, but nothing else. They always say that if Finland allows competition in this business it would affect on National Lotto and it might be gone soon. Yes, it affects on it a little bit, but people won't never stop dreaming about Lotto jackpots.
Finnish citizens could bet with Finnish companies witout sending money offshores, people from abroad might bet with these companies, companies would pay taxes and create some jobs, but no.
Now the situation here is that people bet more and more offshore and also gambles at online casinos (I want to keep betting and gambling separated).
My opinion is that goverments should run Lotto and casinos, because basically they are money machines. Las Vegas faces severe competition, thats why casinos might collaps. Problem might be that goverment probably would change payouts to a lower level.
In England a private company runs their Lotto, this is one of the absurds thing I know. How can they lose?? Giving back 45% of every unit staked in winnings is free money for owners.
Internet casinos owned by Goverment, why not. I think people trust them more than those offshore casinos. Deposits and withdrawals would be easy to complete. I don't personally trust software based casinos, but that's not the issue.
I want to get into sportsbetting business, not gambling or Lotto. Goverment can keep those.
[This message was edited by Faceless on June 29, 2003 at 04:50 AM.]
England's lottery is a world unto itself. The reason why the government doesn't run it is that the English government was about the only enlightened place in the world that realized a couple things. First they wanted to be regulators, not operators of the business and running the thing makes you quite clearly a little more interested than you should be. Second the lottery there has a much more defined role in society, they are meant to be huge contributors to charity, not the national treasury. There is some money going to the government, but with the system they have they can legitimately sell lottery tickets and say "spend money towards a good cause" not the usual lotto refrain "spend money so your elected fools can squander it". Big difference don't you think? BTW you can't really envy the English lottery, it has to face the most intense competition in the world for dollars and by keeping it private they allow for aggressive marketing and prizes that couldn't be possible in a standard system.
Why would the government (US) have to run it for it to be legal?
Regulate and collect taxes (no problem). But running it best let to private industry. Wild Bill, you are from Las Vegas and can probably remember the good old days there--which was before Offshore was in the picture. Once Vegas had competition, they wanted as many suggest to close up-not take bets? Why was this?
We can all agree that the government way of running things frequently is a total screw up, but I disagree 100% that legalazation nationwide would not help the players as long as it was run by PRIVATE INDUSTRY!
Regulate and collect taxes (no problem). But running it best let to private industry. Wild Bill, you are from Las Vegas and can probably remember the good old days there--which was before Offshore was in the picture. Once Vegas had competition, they wanted as many suggest to close up-not take bets? Why was this?
We can all agree that the government way of running things frequently is a total screw up, but I disagree 100% that legalazation nationwide would not help the players as long as it was run by PRIVATE INDUSTRY!
Oldman, its not that I or all of us don't want that, I am just being completely realistic. Don't you follow what is going on out there? When IL decides they are just going to take almost all the money above a maximum limit to "prevent" gambling and make casinos "pay their fair share" its not exactly encouraging. Right now there are about 10 major casino jurisdictions and almost every one of them is either considering increasing their taxes or already has done it in the last two years, and in almost every case they haven't done much to give the casinos in return. They just basically decided to take their money by changing the rules. So what makes you think they will do something that is totally logical and fair for sports betting? And why would they allow it to go on for a fair tax rate, one that allows standard books as we know them operate? I mean right now the think nothing of charging 40% or more of net win from many jurisdictions, especially the racinos, so I just can't see them accepting a 10% of net win or less tax. Anything higher than that and the books are going to have to kill us in vig to survive. That is simple reality. Not to mention just looking at the landscape and it can't provide any hope, every Canadian province has these parlay type games with big takeouts, Oregon has one...Nevada is the only one without it and come on you KNOW those guys dream of having books with nothing but parlay cards! To sum things up you have an industry that doesn't care much about sports as long as it gets people to come visit and play slots and sports having extremely rich leagues fighting even the idea of betting on their games and working against greedy government looking for an oversize cut.
If all that makes you wishful then go ahead. I just feel 100% certain that all of us will not like the results one bit if this unrealistic wish of regulation were to come true. And my last point is that unless they really do a good job of making strong regulations of how much one can lose and limit the devastating effects of video poker and video slots, we could see major backlash against all gaming because there is no doubt these two games will bust a ton of people if access is easy and people have the chance to gamble on them non-stop.
If all that makes you wishful then go ahead. I just feel 100% certain that all of us will not like the results one bit if this unrealistic wish of regulation were to come true. And my last point is that unless they really do a good job of making strong regulations of how much one can lose and limit the devastating effects of video poker and video slots, we could see major backlash against all gaming because there is no doubt these two games will bust a ton of people if access is easy and people have the chance to gamble on them non-stop.
Wild Bill is 1 million percent correct in what he says here folks. Big time. As one who has been trained in certain aspects of what he says and the things you need to say to get your agenda across the right way.
In addition just what corps do is revelaed as they do say one thing and then as soon as they get what they want go after anything they do not control and lock the rest out.
His last post is also very correct but I will contend people will not do 2 things in regards to internet regulations in this country. One is people will not sign up to gamble with these companies at any level because the law will be such that they can look in on you at anytime as well as turn over in gambling records etc, etc.
2. While I do think they will put in stop limits I dont think people will accept the restriction. It wont be just win-loss. It could be x amount of time a week or a certain stop number on what you can win or lose and a host of other things for all we know.
So what makes you think they will do something that is totally logical and fair for sports betting? And why would they allow it to go on for a fair tax rate, one that allows standard books as we know them operate? I mean right now the think nothing of charging 40% or more of net win from many jurisdictions, especially the racinos, so I just can't see them accepting a 10% of net win or less tax. Anything higher than that and the books are going to have to kill us in vig to survive. That is simple reality. Not to mention just looking at the landscape and it can't provide any hope, every Canadian province has these parlay type games with big takeouts, Oregon has one...Nevada is the only one without it and come on you KNOW those guys dream of having books with nothing but parlay cards! To sum things up you have an industry that doesn't care much about sports as long as it gets people to come visit and play slots and sports having extremely rich leagues fighting even the idea of betting on their games and working against greedy government looking for an oversize cut.
Its the truth folks bottom line it is the simple reality.
How does everyone feel about this issue a full 3 years later?
In addition just what corps do is revelaed as they do say one thing and then as soon as they get what they want go after anything they do not control and lock the rest out.
His last post is also very correct but I will contend people will not do 2 things in regards to internet regulations in this country. One is people will not sign up to gamble with these companies at any level because the law will be such that they can look in on you at anytime as well as turn over in gambling records etc, etc.
2. While I do think they will put in stop limits I dont think people will accept the restriction. It wont be just win-loss. It could be x amount of time a week or a certain stop number on what you can win or lose and a host of other things for all we know.
So what makes you think they will do something that is totally logical and fair for sports betting? And why would they allow it to go on for a fair tax rate, one that allows standard books as we know them operate? I mean right now the think nothing of charging 40% or more of net win from many jurisdictions, especially the racinos, so I just can't see them accepting a 10% of net win or less tax. Anything higher than that and the books are going to have to kill us in vig to survive. That is simple reality. Not to mention just looking at the landscape and it can't provide any hope, every Canadian province has these parlay type games with big takeouts, Oregon has one...Nevada is the only one without it and come on you KNOW those guys dream of having books with nothing but parlay cards! To sum things up you have an industry that doesn't care much about sports as long as it gets people to come visit and play slots and sports having extremely rich leagues fighting even the idea of betting on their games and working against greedy government looking for an oversize cut.
Its the truth folks bottom line it is the simple reality.
How does everyone feel about this issue a full 3 years later?
WildBill said:
Not only is this 2 million percent correct but Washington State has already started to show that, that is exactly what it is happening and its exactly what they are trying to do.
What eventually happens there will happen to all. save maybe for the freedom of speech stops at anything you talk, write, recieve or transmit
that is illegal.
If the US gov't started their own sports lottery and outlawed offshores, I would find a few locals, and maybe even national bookies and bet with them. A friend of mine knows a guy in Illinois that bets with a bookie in Florida. So they are still out there, and would be better than the terrible odds the gov't would offer.
