SHRINK...AND OTHERS... NEW THREAD ON "BOOKS MOVING TO PANAMA"

would like to hear some opinions on panama, becoming as SHRINK put it the new "mecca" of the offshore industry.

is this going to be a case of "the grass is greener on the other side?"

probably wont be able to tell for a few years..

from what i hear Panama has good infrastructure, stable government, ample working supply ect.....

but didnt Costa Rica have these also....

my good people, books that relocate (and future books) should be concerned with how much the U.S. can manipulate the Pananamanian gov.

Panama relies on the U.S. more than any other country for exporting goods.

the U.S. has always considered Panama to be a major money laundering source, (much more so than Costa rica) drug trafficking is still numero uno in Panama..

the U.S. and Panama have historically had strained relations, but lately they have become bussom buddies..

and whos to say Panama wont mirror Costa Ricas policies on sportsbooks ie...taxing them to death, in a few years...

IMO.. the most serious issue that faces the offshore book industry isnt whether or not they find a spot with "good infrastructure" so they can set up web sites and phone lines...

its how much the U.S. can hurt them with policies and harrasment, whether it be in Costa Rica or Panama........

Panama uses the US dollar and has excellent banking infrastructure, two things that CR and Antigua can't say. Also the percentage of English speakers in Panama is rather high, owing to the long history of English speakers getting good jobs in banking and in anything related to the Canal. On the downside there isn't the emphasis on education there and the crime is just as bad. Also the weather is downright horrible, you don't have an area at altitude like CR so a lot of people that come to set up business will be complaining from day one. The issue that worries most is the connection between the governments, but I think this is a moot point really. Government and businesses are two different things. The US cannot tell a country how to make their laws and if they unduly influenced a country because of laws they didn't like then it becomes an international crisis. I don't think the US government is going to get itself in that kind of muck just to shut down some bookies. Instead of being the paranoid that want to read conspiracy novels, just put on your reality caps and think how ridiculous the prospect of it is. The FBI can run around CR or Panama all they want, there is no legal reason or really popular demand for shutting down a betting operation so why should it happen?

In all I think Panama would be a good choice, especially if its great banking laws and infrastructure are used to its advantage. Taxes are always hard to predict, but no one should ever expect to go to a country and think they will never levy taxes on them. And also since this is new territory, I think the books need to embrace the government and modest taxes from day one. Work on the partnership instead of trying to sneak in and quietly establish business and hope they don't get on you once they find out the dollars you bring in. Go into the country and openly pay all the taxes a normal exporting business would. When the government comes asking for more, make the argument that if you pay more so should all the other exporters. At least your argument passes the smell test then...

DPO:

Great thread. Let me post the little I know about this new option. I just came back from Panama, not too long ago. Had to go down there and see what the place is all about.

I have to say WildBill has spoken the truth as usual ( it amazes me what WB knows about everything, shit ). He's right on the money about the banking infrastructure. The place has service standards that can be compared to those in the first world in this field. That excellence in the banking services, along with the US Dollar as currency provide an excellent ground of operation.

Due to the nature of this industry, many in here will be interested in knowing how much can the US Agencies really "big-brother" this country. And they should. D.E.A. and C.I.A. have Panama profiled as one of the places where most drug lords and weapon traffickers run their banking operations from. It wouldn't be odd to encounter future difficulties for account holders that have high traffic of funds between Panama and the US. However, the main men behind these banks like to enforce their discretion policies as strongly as Switzerland. We shall see what happens.

As for the weather it SUCKS. Hot and humid like the fvcking Bayou. AC is a MUST.

Panama City has a lot to offer. The damn place looks like a city, for a change in these God forgotten lands. A very good thing is that they don't run business in form of government monopolies in Panama. So you don't have to pay the ridiculous 100% import tax on cars, for example. And you don't have to spend a little fortune on a freaking cell phone that works. All platform of services are based on capitalist progression. Good thing.

I believe that any bookmaker will find this place to suit their needs pretty well. I believe WildBill offered the best approach yet:

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Work on the partnership instead of trying to sneak in and quietly establish business and hope they don't get on you once they find out the dollars you bring in. Go into the country and openly pay all the taxes a normal exporting business would. When the government comes asking for more, make the argument that if you pay more so should all the other exporters. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Panama is OPEN for business, American way.

Now allow me to add a personal opinion. Those BIG shops opearting in C.R. will get the most benefit of smaller shops leaving to Panama. Why?

<LI>This little exodus will send out a clear message to the C.R. governement. "Nobody is irreplaceable, NOBODY, NO place". Hopefully they will understand thay need to act professionally to keep a portion of the business in C.R. If they do see this, and if they change their "taxation plan" accordingly; most of all this stupid game C.R politicians play will be over. Otherwise, they can kiss the Bookie Bucks bye bye.

<LI>When large books leave, there will be hundreds of trained clerks looking for a new job. As usual, if the offer is greater than the demmand, the cost per clerk will reduce drastically.

<LI>C.R. economy will suffer. Bookie Bucks mean more business. More money for spending. Restaurants, clubs and every service in general WILL see a decrease in their volume. Should that translate into a significant reduction of the acquisition cost in the C.R. economy? Hopefully.

In sum, sharp players (namely books in this particular case) should "hedge" this bet. Why not get the best out of the situation? It will be fun to play the customer that needs to make a decision on which provider to use. CAPITALISM baby.

H.I.P. Update on Panama:

(+):

-SICK, SICK clubs.
-Packed with Hit It material.
-Nighttrain. This sweet drink is called "bajapanties". Chicks love it and it gets them drunk in no time. A leg-opener...
-Good variety of restaurants.
-Nice places for living, namely Paitilla (SP).
-All major boutiques in the place, Kenneth Cole, DNYK, Dolce e Gabbana, all of them are in there.
-More bang for your buck, place is cheap. CHEAP. Beer bottle is $1, served cold.

(-)
-The average Panamenian chick is UGLY. The very few hot women frequenting clubs know they're unique.
-What the fvck is that music all about? Some kind of domestic HIP-HOP, reggae, skank, salsa fusion. Nasty shit.
-Hot and humid weather.
-Heavy Colombian presence. And I'm not talking about women either.

Just my .02

>>>>Now allow me to add a personal opinion. Those BIG shops opearting in C.R. will get the most benefit of smaller shops leaving to Panama. Why?


This little exodus will send out a clear message to the C.R. governement. "Nobody is irreplaceable, NOBODY, NO place". Hopefully they will understand thay need to act professionally to keep a portion of the business in C.R. If they do see this, and if they change their "taxation plan" accordingly; most of all this stupid game C.R politicians play will be over. Otherwise, they can kiss the Bookie Bucks bye bye.


When large books leave, there will be hundreds of trained clerks looking for a new job. As usual, if the offer is greater than the demmand, the cost per clerk will reduce drastically.


C.R. economy will suffer. Bookie Bucks mean more business. More money for spending. Restaurants, clubs and every service in general WILL see a decrease in their volume. Should that translate into a significant reduction of the acquisition cost in the C.R. economy? Hopefully.

In sum, sharp players (namely books in this particular case) should "hedge" this bet. Why not get the best out of the situation? It will be fun to play the customer that needs to make a decision on which provider to use. CAPITALISM baby. <<<



I agree, nice comments WOL. You sometimes find some of the most rigid unflexible people in the world become very accomodating when they have to be. Will be interesting to see if this "wakes up" the CR government.

You don't realize how good you have it until it's gone sometimes.

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR> -The average Panamenian chick is UGLY. The very few hot women frequenting clubs know they're unique. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Good thing in CR the average tica is a hotty and most although they know they are all that, they still wanna have fun.

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR> This little exodus will send out a clear message to the C.R. governement. "Nobody is irreplaceable, NOBODY, NO place". Hopefully they will understand thay need to act professionally to keep a portion of the business in C.R. If they do see this, and if they change their "taxation plan" accordingly; most of all this stupid game C.R politicians play will be over. Otherwise, they can kiss the Bookie Bucks bye bye.
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Thats what i am sort of expecting to be the biggest + of all of this. That the Costa Rican Gov. will see that Costa Rica is not irreplacable. Panama though, would be a concern, even with the banks operating "Swiss style" , so to speak.
The US has their hands all over Panama, maybe even more so than Costa Rica?

But, as WB said, <BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR> The FBI can run around CR or Panama all they want, there is no legal reason or really popular demand for shutting down a betting operation so why should it happen?
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

They have been all over Costa Rica for some time, and, so far done nothing substantial to the books there that i am aware of.

I am just curious to see if Panama becomes the next "Mecca" for the fly-by-night scam operations as well as the big boys.
I am sure they will pop up, but, it would be nice to see them limited there. At least for a time we could be somewhat comfortable that the majority of Offshores in Panama are somewhat reliable, and safe to use.

Will be interesting to watch it all unfold, would love to see Panama become what Costa Rica COULD have Should have been.

Thanks for the great input guys!

WILD BILL............first of all im not a conspiracy theory buff, but your correct to say the three letter people have better things to do than chase offshore bookies....

what i was trying to convey is this...

its obvious the U.S. is making it as hard as they can for a person to bet offshore...thats not up to debate....now how far along will/would Panama go along with U.S. policies now and in the future...

obviously, the U.S. gov. knows it cant go into a foreign country and tell them they cant have bookmakers there..

its much easier for the U.S. to pass laws that make it harder for people to use offshore books.....

like you said, hopefully the Panamanian gov. sees the profit potential of sports books and doesnt run them off with excessive taxation and other b.s...

Why don't these new operations IMMEDIATELY get together and make a pact to at first self-regulate and then once you have some momentum with a few shops get the government to do it? For some time being in Antigua meant something until people got onto the fact that it was just paying a tax, not actually proven you were worthy of regulation. To have a clear government regulation tied in with the strong secrecy laws of Panama's banking system will make things very hard to beat for most jurisdictions. People will start laughing at the thought of going to Belize and its 1950s style of life (or so it seems). I have been to all these Caribbean and Central American jurisdictions, most times specifically on consulting behalf of a couple of book operators and I can't tell you how obvious that Panama is the best country for this business...but the issue has long been how will the government react. Now that you have clear figures, Wall Street talking about a $6 billion business by next year, you need no more reason to be afraid they won't "get it". Every country gets it when you talk those dollars. When you point out how the business has flourished in their backyard, it sends the bells and whistles off.

How Panama works out will greatly depend on how these pioneers do and the proper steps they take to make sure it works. The attitude of "well its not as bad as X (fill in your current country)" is NOT the way to approach it. Approach it as a new place where you can teach everyone involved the right way to do business, from the lawmakers and regulator-types, to the schools that will provide you the clerks you will need, to the communications companies that will cater their business model to yours when they come to the conclusion that a big demand for their products just might be coming. All these things need to be done right, I just wonder if the books that move there will make sure they are done right, even if it means what they do might help out other books that follow them.

Posted by Stats-R-Us, in here

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Having spent a great deal of time in Panama over the years, as usual it can be a good/bad situation.

The Good is that you are dealing with one of the most modern settings in the region, with plenty of new infrastructure because of the impact of the banking industries (over 130 international banks have a presence right now). Hotels are excellent (The Bristol a personal favorite if you want something on the quiet side), Restaurants are quite good (Shula's Steakhouse likely to become the favorite of the off-shore crowd), there are some decent casinos (Cesar Park and Hotel Panama being the best, and there are plenty of places to bet live Race/Sports), and Punta Paitilla and Marbella are among the best neighborhoods to reside in all of Latin America.

The Bad is that it appears that there is only one Master License granted, forcing everyone under an umbrella, which is not a very good "control" situation at all. Very little leverage on dealing with tax or employment issues. The way that the license was issued has already created political enemies internally, especially among those that are already in the gaming industry in that country (CIRSA, Thunderbird and others have spent significant development $$$ through the years and were passed over). The government itself lacks stability, and the economy has been in a significant downturn the past two years. Related to that is the fact that extradition treaties between Panama and the U.S. are not favorable at all for this industry, and we strongly suggest any U.S. citizens doing their homework before making the move.

Except for a short "dry season" from December into March, the weather is swelteringly humid, all day every day. Brutal afternoon thunderstorms the rest of the year, and it can feel like living in a car wash.

As for the women, perhaps the most important indicator is that the overwhelming majority of the dancers in the clubs are either Colombian or Dominican.

Anyone that has been in San Jose for very long will likely enjoy the quality of life much more in Panama, except for the weather. But from an operations standpoint, those planning to move there should already plan on having their back-up location on standy.

Just some food for thought. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Thought we might wanna have in this thread, which seems to be more substantious.

Great posts WildBill. If you have time, please contact me at gbooth@bet2gamble.com

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR> How Panama works out will greatly depend on how these pioneers do and the proper steps they take to make sure it works. The attitude of "well its not as bad as X (fill in your current country)" is NOT the way to approach it. Approach it as a new place where you can teach everyone involved the right way to do business, from the lawmakers and regulator-types, to the schools that will provide you the clerks you will need, to the communications companies that will cater their business model to yours when they come to the conclusion that a big demand for their products just might be coming. All these things need to be done right, I just wonder if the books that move there will make sure they are done right, even if it means what they do might help out other books that follow them <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I agree with you WildBill. This "start from scratch" will allow for a new beginning in this industry. The question remains:

Will people understand the crucial importance of an integral implementation of all resources?

What we really need now is the legit books to step up and create an entity that would be responsible to assure:

<LI>A minimum standard to even be eligible to apply for a license. This entity should be assisted by an international reputable accounting firma, that could vouch for the liquidity of the book and the safe keeping in escrow of the post-up funds. No details will really be necessary, as long as the books are open for scrutiny to this regulating organism.

<LI>Industry standards od operation.

<LI>As WildBill accurately points out, the good preparation of the clerks to be hired. This would require the supervision of this "Books Commission", in order to create standard operational procedures.

<LI>A form of contract that would bind the licensed books with a unconditional "we'll-pay-the-players-what-they-have-coming" program. A legal contract to avoid books "stiffing" players.

These would be the minumum required to start off with the right foot.

But there's too much paranoia in this industry to even think of an initial phase of cooperation.

Utopia is a beautiful place, it's just to damn bad it's just that: vision.

An Aussie scheme would be ideal... SPIVE. Where are you girl?

I like Panama City, better roads, nicer building, cleaner sidewalks, etc. I agree the Panama women are not as fine in general mass as Costa Rican women but more Panamian beauties have won the Miss Universe contests than Costa Rica ladies. I like using US dollars, calling them "Balboas" is alright. Even there change is the same size and US coins.
Panama City with its tall buildings, banks, international traiding, ethnic neiborhoods is more like New York and San Jose is more like St. Louis. I would rather live in Panama City.
Just my opinion.

Maybe I should have chosen Miami and Tampa.

<Bump>

WildBill made some good points.

offshore books are like nomads............banned from doing business in their own country..........what a shame