is card counting over rated.

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At this site i made the comment that keeping tabs at a roulette wheel is not much differant than counting card. predictably the card counters felt there was a differance. I recently read the book about the MIT guys who supposdly chewed up Vegas counting and increasing there bets. I know who knows.
But, lets talk about a 6 or 8 deck table. To get the positive count one needs to up there bet substantially i would think in a 5 or 6 hour session you would get 3 opportunities to increase ones wager. If I understood someone the other day playing near perfect system has a negitive EV of $12.00 per hour at a $25.00 table.So in 6 hrs all things being equal one would be minus $125.00 before the opportunities occur. Now if we get 3 of these positive counts and we go raise out bet to $250.00 from $25.00 The house should win 1 we should win 1 and possibly the second one. So we win $250.00 lose $125.00 in 6 hrs of play for a net of $125.00 or $20.00 an hour. Thata assuming we win the extra hand. For simplicity sakes I assume the remaining 4 cards are 3 tens and an 8. Oh if you dont win the extrea hand and you wind up losing you now lose 375 for the session. So you are playing in a game where you can win $125 and lose $375. Is that really worth it?
Please allow me to say I have been gambling for 50+ years am not having an alzehimers attack. I might qualify as a square as I like the overs and I like the favorites except for some real dogs in baseball that I bet against. In my real world I trade options and futures so math works for me. I just think this card counting at 6 and 8 deck tables is over rated. Besides its a slow Saturday and the all star break is coming up so Ithought I would write this letter. Please do not atack me personally as it would only provke me to attack more of the gambvling shilloboths (fancy word) probablly spelled incorrectly. have a nice weekend. lookingforward to the inteligent comentary that will be forth coming.:
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You misunderstand the nature of counting. Long term a small positive count has the casino edge at 0%. Positive counts occur frequently, but the MIT team was looking for the huge positive counts that equate to a high % return. With many tables being monitored simultaneously this would happen more frequently than you suggest. A single player might find a shoe goes positive quite early and be worth playing while one that goes negative early would suggest leaving the table. On the other hand a spotter for the MIT team would wait until a positive shoe became really rich before calling in the big guns.
 

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Pristine card counting under perfect conditions (like your kitchen table) is great. Under live casino conditions not so great, and getting harder all the time. Surveillance technology can spot any real card counters fairly quickly causing shufle-ups, and sooner or later expulsion from the casiono. Can an advantage still be had by expert hard working counters? Yes, is it worth the aggravation? IMHO NO.

wil.
 

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<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by wilheim:
Can an advantage still be had by expert hard working counters? Yes, is it worth the aggravation? IMHO NO.
wil.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I agree and while I'm no expert I used to supplement my income in the local casino by playing blackjack while waiting for a poker seat. It's a while since I've been able to play due to the introduction of CSMs (continuous shuffling machines).
 

RX Senior
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as far as 'is it over rated' goes, I would think it depends on how accomplished or simply how naturally talented the counter is.

i think just counting the 4/5/6's+1 and 10/A's-1 to get a TC, then yes. definatly over rated.

if youre like the late ungar or that russian kid from MIT (forget his name) then it can work absolute miracles for you.
 

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I personally would never tell someone to get into it unless they are already trying to be an advantage bettor. Problem with something that can yield an advantage like this is they try to do too much, too soon and they also try too long with a losing game because they think they are supposed to win. Today's games are extremely hard to beat. So many casinos ban mid-deck entry. The shuffle points are getting really lousy because of the shufflers. The "continuous" deck game is catching on a bit. And most of all most casinos are just taking a no tolerance viewpoint. Used to be many casinos would tolerate a counter who wasn't averaging at least $50/bet. Now people tell me they get backed off doing a 1 to 3 spread with $10 units at some casinos you would think could handle a bit of a loss. That is just the mentality today and as long as slots continue to grow and continue to go up in profit with the lower denom games, pits are under more fire to get their win and hold % up. Backing off any level of counter fits into that strategy well, especially when casinos in so many places are crowded almost all the time. Chasing off a counter when tables are full is an easy decision for a casino to make.
 

Rx. Senior
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I tell people this all of the time,

"IF YOU ARE NOT GOING TO COUNT THE CARDS IN BLACKJACK, THEN DONT EVEN BOTHER SITTING DOWN AT THE TABLE!"


My father visited Vegas last month on a business trip and asked me if he should play any blackjack. Well he has played blackjack in local games, but I told him not to even go to teh casino floor if he didnt understand card counting or when to double down.

Hell, you can have MUCH more fun playing the slots and your overall lsoing % will be about the same.

Most casinos have an average adavantage of around 30% on blackjack since the majority of the players dont know SHIT about the game!
 

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To start with lets take a 6 deck bj game and roulette
The respective advantages are about .4% and 5.3%

So to start with roulette is already 13 times worse than BJ played with perfect basic strategy

I do not reccomend it to anyone who is not willing to put in the time and effort and can do quick math on the spot while looking natural and conversating with people at the table

There is a lot of work and I have gone from the hi lo count to the halves and hopefully by the time I go to vegas I will be proficient in the AO2 system

It does become second nature after a great deal of work and the bad swings are what get most people

If you can stomache these swings and will work at it then i suggest you learn

Other than that i see no reason to set foot in a casino

Negative EV just isnt my thing
 

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You are kidding yourself if you think slots take as much money as BJ from even a clueless player. BJ at a crowded table is a slow game and the majority of decisions are rather obvious. Even the worst players would be hard pressed to be playing with a -5% EV. The math done by some experts of what the uneducated player plays comes in around 2.7-2.8% negative.

Nothing wrong with playing any casino game even without knowledge. It is intended to be entertainment and as long as you accept it as such then the vast majority of people handle it fine. There is a very distinct risk with card counting of actually doing damage because people assume they have an edge and risk a lot more money because of it. They might not even play a winning game, but think they are and blow a lot of money on it. If you tell a person, just remember it is for fun and don't expect to make money from it, they usually play at stakes they are comfortable with and enjoy the game win or lose. It is when you tell people they could be beating the house and then when things go wrong, they blow a big chunk of dough. That is why I say I won't tell anyone to count cards unless they are experience gamblers at games that can be beaten. Then they know even with an edge things can go wrong for quite some time. They know that they have to stick to a set plan and play within certain limits. And most of all they hopefully know how to keep their cool because a game that requires the concentration like BJ counting, you have to keep your wits even when things are going wrong or else trouble awaits.
 

Rx. Senior
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bobk,
if you are looking for further research on the subjects touched on in the MIT book, I would like to suggest a few of the books by Ken Uston. "Million Dollar Blackjack" would be a start.
Counting is just a small part of what it takes to become an advantage player. Their are many other facets of the game that are involved to become a consistent winner. When I used to play and give advice, people told me just to teach them to count and thought they could win. I let them know that counting is a strategy that makes up just 20-25% of what it takes to be a winner.
 

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I actually think developing an advantage 21 game is important simply to help you in areas that are much more beatable. The cross learner in advantage play in multiple games is important and will pay off in the long run.
 

Rx. Senior
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May I add Fezzik, that it also helps to develop the discipline that is necessary to become successful as well.
 

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Can anyone suggest a couple of good books to start learning how to count cards in blackjack?
 

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For a beginner I think Blackbelt in Blackjack by Snyder is the best. Professional Blackjack by Wong is a solid piece as well. Lots of choices really, but some books try to do too much like Blackjack for Blood. That is the one thing I think the field has a problem with. Every author has a book that attempts to be a complete work on the book, but there are quite a few authors. Many are just overlapping each other. Better would be if there were more guys trying to teach the subject in a couple volumes instead of some where they assume you know nothing and by the end can do a level two count with insane ratios to memorize.

And yes I totally agree with others in here, counting itself is only a small, but essential, part of winning. Reading the books you hear some pretty elaborate schemes people run, many times involving women. It is definitely true, if you are a good looking woman you can get away with murder in counting. I bet there are pit bosses and surveillance guys that might have a software program that tells them she is playing at a professional level and they will just say "awww, she is just getting lucky, lets keep watching her". So definitely if you can recruit them to your efforts you will be many steps ahead of the game.
 

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Bobk: Like you I have been gambling 50+ years. I started counting cards in the 1960's when Thorpe came out with his first book. It was very hard to understand and a dificult system to play. I doubt if I won any money using his theories, but it did cut down on my losses.

In the 1970's I read a book by Revere that was very good. It explained the whole concept of basic strategy and card counting very well and was easy to follow. I became good at his system and actually began to win money using it. But that was mainly because the casinos had not yet come up with a strategy to counter the effects of counting. They were still dealing down to the last few cards in the deck and down there the counting was very accurate and with no flack about raising the size of my bets. If the count was high, I would usually win back any earlier losses on that shoe + add some extra winnings.I remember sessions at Ceaser's Palace in Lake Tahoe at their 1 deck table where they dealt almost to the bottom of the deck, where I won 5-10 times my starting bankroll many times. Those were the "good old Days". It doesn't happen any more.

There is one fallacy about your statement that there are only about 3 times where the count is good enough to make a large bet. During the course of a shoe the count rises and falls like waves. As it keeps getting higher you raise your bets accordingly. Thus if you are a $10 bettor and the count gets slightly higher you go to $15. If it still goes higher you go to $20, etc. This way you are betting higher average bets when the count is higher and less when it is lower. This is what makes you a winner. Grinding it out. Not jumping from $10 to $100 when the count gets very high. There is no guarantee on any single hand, that when the count gets very very high you will win. As a player you will only have a 5% to 7% edge on a high count. I'll never forget one night in the MGM (before the fire) the count was astronomically high and I went from $25 bets to $100 a hand. I lost 5 straight hands as the dealer had a 20 or 21 on every hand and I was wiped out.

In the early 1980's the casinos started putting in counter measures (6 and 8 decks, only dealing 2/3 of the shoe, whatching for counters who would raise their bets suddenly) and I stopped winning as frequently.

It takes a lot of mental energy and concentration to count and takes away from your enjoyment of the game. I stopped counting by the middle 1980's as it was not worth the effort, although the MIT guys showed that you can still win with it.
ESQAJM
 

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Thank you for the opinions and thoughts. In the real world I dont get to Atl City enough to be a serious card counter. It is to much like work. I play a basic system and sort of count each deal as it goes and as some one mentioned I move bets up a little. Its recreation more than serious gambling although winning is always better than losing. Thanks for the thoughts and opinions and I hope I helped pass the weekend with the question for some of you. Thanks again.My next question will probably ask about the validity of % wins in gambling.
 

Rx. Senior
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The first book I would start with if I were you would be "Beat the Dealer" by Thorp. This was the first text on counting and popularized the game of blackjack.
 

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FROM THE LVSUN:
TALES FROM THE TABLES:
Must be ‘21’ to entertain this idea

Movie portrays team bringing down the house, but it’s casinos that ultimately win in real life

By <CITE>Liz Benston</CITE>
Sun, Mar 23, 2008 (2 a.m.)
001movie21_t180.jpg

Columbia Pictures' 21

Ben Campbell and others are recruited to join M.I.T.’s blackjack team – a group of students that uses smarts and skills to take Vegas for millions – in Columbia Pictures’ 21. Directed by Robert Luketic, 21 based upon the book "Bringing Down the House" by Ben Mezrich.

“Beat the Dealer” did it nearly a half century ago. So have other books and TV shows since. And now this week’s release of “21” — a movie about a team of MIT students who used their blackjack card-counting strategies to win millions — might once again draw countless wannabes to Las Vegas who are convinced they’ve got what it takes to bring down the house.
Today card counting — or even suspected card counting — can earn you a hasty exit from the blackjack tables. Some blackjack experts, though, think that casinos, rather than tossing counters, should be rolling out the red carpet.
“Nevada casinos have probably lost money by turning away card counters,” said Ed Thorp, whose 1962 book “Beat the Dealer” single-handedly created a cottage industry of blackjack players who make a living counting cards. “I’d make a sales tool out of it. I’d show that people can come to the casino and win.”
The casino bosses listening to Thorp in a packed ballroom during a conference last month nodded in unison. But they aren’t likely to take his advice anytime soon — even though they know it to be true.
Thorp’s card-counting secrets so upset Las Vegas casinos that they changed blackjack rules weeks after the book’s publication to improve the house edge. Just as quickly, the casinos restored the old rules when blackjack customers stopped playing.
In the years since, Nevada casinos have reaped the rewards of the book, which inspired hordes of players to test their skill and luck at the blackjack tables. What the casinos have lost to skilled players they have made back tenfold from those who unsuccessfully tried to emulate them. Without Thorp’s brains, patience or bankroll, those players have lost much more than they won.
“People will buy a book, read it halfway through and think they can beat the game — and they lose,” said Anthony Curtis, a blackjack aficionado and publisher of the Las Vegas Advisor newsletter.
Give a little, take a lot
That’s precisely why casinos are expecting a boost from “21” after it opens Friday. The Sony Pictures film, based on “Bringing Down the House,” the 2002 book that chronicled the MIT team’s exploits in the 1990s, stars Kevin Spacey as a Thorp-like ringleader to the students.
Just as Thorp’s book inspired generations of numbers geeks and others to take on the casinos, executives are hoping the movie will inspire people otherwise unmotivated to study blackjack books and strategy charts.
For many years casinos have been winning on two fronts. They routinely ban card counters — whose bigger bets when their advantage increases can give them away — from their blackjack tables, with the days of beefy security bosses beating up players in back rooms having yielded to a tap on the shoulder or a whisper in the player’s ear.
And they have reduced the number of basic blackjack games with a low house edge, favoring variations that appeal to novices by offering lower betting limits and seeming advantages such as a single deck and more liberal rules. But these games more than make up for the player advantages, usually by reducing the traditional payout for blackjacks.
With 78 fewer blackjack tables in operation in 2007 than in 2000, casinos on the Strip won 39 percent more from players at blackjack than they did seven years ago. Statewide, casinos won 21 percent more from players at blackjack last year than in 2000 despite 546 fewer tables.
Although blackjack is earning more for the casinos’ bottom line, its importance is declining on the Strip, where slot machines and even baccarat are growing at a faster rate.
Unlike many other casino games, blackjack operates on a thin margin of a couple of percentage points in the casino’s favor. A player who knows what’s called basic strategy but doesn’t count cards can cut the house edge to less than half a percentage point. Card counting can give a player enough of an advantage to overcome that remaining house edge.
“I think casinos would like to see blackjack go away if they could,” said Al Rogers, publisher of Current Blackjack News in Las Vegas.
Rogers says classic-rules blackjack games may go the way of mechanical slot machines in a few years, replaced by games such as Three Card Poker, a popular branded game that keeps a higher percentage of player wagers than blackjack.
Some casinos have upped the ante by paying 6-to-5 for blackjack instead of the original and more preferable 3-to-2. Some casinos effectively discourage advantage players with machines that continuously shuffle cards not in play and dealer methods, such as dealing only half of the decks in play.
Four Queens Director of Casino Operations Glenn Casale has a different approach.
The downtown casino asks card counters to choose another game to play at the property. But Casale has a respect for counters that isn’t shared by some of his colleagues in the business. And he chooses to offer only games that pay the more favorable 3-to-2 for blackjack — with their bigger wins and losses in the short term — as a trade-off to attracting more players and making more money over the long haul.
“Card counting is very difficult. It’s a job and a skill. I have a great deal of respect for these guys,” said Casale, who grew up with members of a card counting team led by Tommy Hyland.
Very few pose real risk
Although card counting is not illegal, casinos are averse to any tactic that improves players’ chances. So when casino bosses think a player’s card counting is allowing him to get the better of them, they simply tell him that his business is no longer wanted at their blackjack tables.
Experts say there may be only a few hundred people who are exceptionally good counters and advantage players. Of those, perhaps a few dozen are members of well-financed teams that can ride out losses and have mastered the social skills and disguises needed to blend in under pressure.
“There are very few people who pose a risk to the casino,” said Jeff Voyles, a casino management and surveillance instructor at UNLV and a former casino executive with MGM Grand.
“Most (counters) are good at one or two things, like skill and money management. Most of the card counters I caught at MGM weren’t good at removing their emotions from the game, and they blew their cover.”
Not as easy as it looks
Still, many casinos have tightened their games to thwart counters, even slowing them down by repetitive shuffling of cards. At last month’s World Game Protection Conference, consultant and former Aladdin casino manager Bill Zender showed pit bosses how the property increased revenue by abandoning shuffling techniques that discourage card counters.
Curtis endorsed this approach, saying, “Time and motion studies indicate that casinos shouldn’t worry about the better players as much as they should speed up the game and get more hands on the table.”
But that advice is counterintuitive on the Strip, where corporate giants demand year-over-year gains and have fired managers for short-term losses at the tables.
The Four Queens, which offers single-deck games with 3-to-2 payout for blackjacks, and the same payout on all its blackjack games, doesn’t sweat the action like some of the bigger properties do, Casale said.
“What we win today we may lose tomorrow but at the end of the year, the hold percentage will be consistent,” he said.
Watching college kids take a casino for millions will be like watching Tiger Woods clean up on the golf course, he said, because it looks easy.
“Everyone thinks they can play like Tiger Woods.”
 

The Great Govenor of California
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no mid deck entry, weak penetration and 6-5 on 21 now. Vegas casino gambling is a joke. The alternative is craps with 6 guys being paid cheerleaders {tips}. Even the bonus slot machines are now hard to find and soon to be exticnt.
 

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There are still plenty of single deck games to be found (especially at Doberman's former joint). You can get a game to yourself, one on one, and counting comes in very handy.
 

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