"Bad Line" definition need.

billpapa · Nov 23, 2004

I found +300 ML at some book when the second best line (elsewhere) was around +240. I made a fairly sizable (for me) bet. At the time the other side could be had at anywhere between -253 and -315. I got a call in 30 minutes or so from the +300 book telling me my bet was voided because the line I bet into was "bad". They said something about "human error". At the time they called the line had moved to (+220 to +180) on the +300 side and -250 or so on the other side (various books). Obviously, I was not happy with the book voiding my bet. I did not argue with them since I knew I was going to lose. THEY define what a "bad line" is; they do not state anywhere what a "bad line" is using NUMBERS. All they mention is "human error".
I am a strong believer that one ought not bet into a "bad line". I have on several occasions called and informed books of "bad lines" they had posted. I believe however that an industry wide definition of what constitutes a "bad line" is needed badly (pun intended). This way we would eliminate all kinds of disputes and misunderstandings which can give both books (especially) and players bad names.

Fishhead · Nov 23, 2004

To arrive at a definitive "set in stone definition" will be virtually impossible to achieve.

HOWEVER, I AM IN 100% AGREEMENT WITH YOU THAT THE INDUSTRY DOES NEED TO FIND A WAY TO MAKE THIS MORE UNDERSTANDABLE AS A WHOLE.

I feel your pain.

I am sure this thread will garnish many forms of ideas on this subject from an array of posters.

-Slim- · Nov 23, 2004

Webster's dictionary has a definition: If you think its a bad line, it is.

Java · Nov 23, 2004

Fishhead-
Shouldn't be that imposible to achieve, at least for RX advertisers.

This problem comes up often enough that the RX advertisers should be forced to provided definitive rules on what constitutes a bad-line, and notification rules for players/books. Since advertisers allow RX to mediate disputes, these can be posted as the official arbitration rules for bad-line claims.

The rules should include whether or not a player has opportunity to retain wager, but at the "correct" line (that would have been available to him at the time of the wager), if game has not yet started.

I realize this gives the player the opportunity to use the movement of the line since original bet to make a better decision, but compared to the "bad line" this is reasonable penalty for the book's error.

Betguy · Nov 23, 2004

One books perspective...

Bad line...? I personally use a great deal of discretion when making the decision to "void" wagering tickets. Voiding is very seldom done...

It is, on occassion, a necessary evil that is used when a player bets the favorite at +5 or +6 when it was obviously a human error made when inputting the lines into the computerized line systems.

In a different light, a favorite of -1 or -2 in football that was written as +1 or +2 would probably be allowed to stand if we got those backwards... even with the human error.

Its simply about fairness in my eyes... However, other sportsbooks may see this differently and they can each speak for themselves. In the case at hand, I will withhold comment because I do not know the specific facts that are involved.

I hope this helps.

Betguy :103631605

Fishhead · Nov 23, 2004

Betguy said:
Bad line...? I personally use a great deal of discretion when making the decision to "void" wagering tickets. Voiding is very seldom done...

It is, on occassion, a necessary evil that is used when a player bets the favorite at +5 or +6 when it was obviously a human error made when inputting the lines into the computerized line systems.

In a different light, a favorite of -1 or -2 in football that was written as +1 or +2 would probably be allowed to stand if we got those backwards... even with the human error.

Its simply about fairness in my eyes... However, other sportsbooks may see this differently and they can each speak for themselves. In the case at hand, I will withhold comment because I do not know the specific facts that are involved.

I hope this helps.

Betguy

This is more or less how I handled the situation in Vegas as a supervisor.

trytrytry · Nov 23, 2004

ive been saying this for 6 months and really urged this to be a major topic at that large watchdog sportsbook meeting held in the summer to get a definition for this. Then the groups with banners must agree or they dont get a banner. I think it makes sense. ITs hard to know where lines will go and its very hard to understand the motivation of a book posting a high line on something. There was a huge difference in lines at major shops for example in the Iraq vs Portugal Olympic soccer game like +600 vs +1100 for Iraq. And nobody cried misline. was one a misline , yea Id say the +1100 but maybe that shop wanted aciton on Iraq to balance the books, the players cant ever tell.

Its hard to know where a line will go and where the public will take it. Just look at the NYY Yankees vs Boston game 6 line.,

Look at the Presidental election that was from -200 to +200 in an hour and all over the place. was it a misline at some point? you never know.

So to call some +310 a misline is really a joke in my mind. But whatever get a definition in place and go with it. Something the players can count on.

I had a +320 bet cancelled when they said misline they wanted +220 just in the past few weeks as well. with the high vig some shops want its hard to know. it helped me as the wager ended up losing and the +320 might have been a better line in the end who knows!

Betguy · Nov 23, 2004

trytrytry... it is much more difficult to judge whether a moneyline is "fair" or not, whether too high or too low. Moneylines require much more "indepth" insight and wisdom to determine whether or not the wager was "fair" to one party or another.

FAIRNESS is the key here...

You can see my point where it is much easier to compare a number line than that of a moneyline... simply because the intentions are of the player or the sportsbook, generally speaking, are easier to determine... A lot like the law of "contracts,"... What was the "intent" of the parties???

I'm sure I'll be flamed for this opinion. I can feel it coming....

Respectfully,

Betguy :howdy:

trytrytry · Nov 23, 2004

Once the bet is confirmed I think it should stay unless its a 2X or more error. That is my 2 cents....

that is how I would define misline

that way if a game or prop is +270 and some clerk types in +2700 its a misline, an error more than 2X and no action either way.

but a +330 line? that is not a misline if they wanted +220

yes its an overlay, it could be scalped at your same shop if you chage it, middled yes but its not a gross error or a misline.

D2bets · Nov 23, 2004

-Slim- said:
Webster's dictionary has a definition: If you think its a bad line, it is.

So then does that mean that if you think it's not a bad line, then it is not?

Betguy · Nov 23, 2004

D2bets said:
So then does that mean that if you think it's not a bad line, then it is not?

D2Bets... Now your thinkin' friend. And, I ain't touchin' that line...

I'll answer by saying, "Remember what I said about FAIRNESS"!!!

You guys around here are just too damn "sharp" !!!

Betguy:nono5:

TheGeneral+ · Nov 23, 2004

Thanks for the post billpapa. I know where you are coming from, but a tough task to get a serious abiding agreement from a group of sportsbooks. So many are independant of each other and have their own ideas which they think is the proper way.

lander · Nov 23, 2004

I've reported dozens and dozens of bad lines in the past, so apparently I know what the obvious ones are ...

yet there have been instances where books have voided VERY QUESTIONABLE lines, ones that I've even seen identical prices at. This has happened to me at very prominent places too.

I hate this rule as it's such a subjective thing.

assassin · Nov 23, 2004

had a situation recently
I must have called in 10 bad lines (bad line is defined by ME as a line where an OBVIOUS input error occurred) to this book, bet a prop. It was losing at the end of q1 of the game.

They did not cancel it, by noon the next day it was still pending, around 4 pm they cancelled the wager (it won).

I contacted CS who said it was a bad line and they knew it DURING the game.
I ended up going up the chainof command and the guy said he reallydidn't know what the line should have been (gave me some ridiculous line that i shot whole in). I told him if I wanted to take a shot i would have played an NBA game he listed at -120 when it should have been -1200 (10 pt favorite), which would be human error.

I also told them that if its a bad line, you have my email, cell phone, contact me and let me know. He agreed they should have done more and it did look like THEY were taking a shot since it was losing and not cancelled at that time. He ended up paying me.

Bad line vs soft line is a tough call.

lander · Nov 23, 2004

Glad you got paid.

It's just the whole principle of it after you take time to contact them when you seen an error just to do them a favor -- no bonuses, not nothing .. just a little relationship building and then BAM they stick to you and treat you like a second rate scammer when something gray comes along.

That's what really bothers me.

assassin · Nov 23, 2004

lander said:
Glad you got paid.

It's just the whole principle of it after you take time to contact them when you seen an error just to do them a favor -- no bonuses, not nothing .. just a little relationship building and then BAM they stick to you and treat you like a second rate scammer when something gray comes along.

That's what really bothers me.

I told them that.
I dont get anythign from them for reporting their errors. Even small one. Have niticed a few +230 -250 that I knew s/b -280 and called them
they were typos but could hardly be called bad lines
still, i didnt play them becuase I kNEW better

good CS is invaulable
I good player is priceless

Doug · Nov 23, 2004

I don't think its off enough to cancel it.

LEYKIS101 · Nov 23, 2004

SIA had Boise State at -16.5(-25.5 is the widely available line) for at least 18 hrs. between yesterday an today. My buddy, being new to this, bet $400 on BSU and thought he had a great bet. I told him it definitely would get cancelled due to this clause in every book's rules. As of yet it is still in his pending wagers, even though they have since went to -25. Any suggestions on what he should do? I have a feeling SIA will wait until after the game goes final to cancel his wager. I suggested he just bet Nevada + for $200 and hope they don't cancel the SIA bet. While I told him he was wrong for taking a shot, books are wrong for not correcting the situation in a timely manner as well.

wilheim · Nov 23, 2004

I would contact the book and make them aware of the bet. Make sure to get a ruling whether he has a bet or not before the game starts.

wil.

LEYKIS101 · Nov 23, 2004

Yeah, good suggestion Wil. SIA has been known to not answer emails and have poor customer service in general. I wish they would just cancel it for him and be done with it.