Stanford Wong give us a break!!!!

krackman · Jan 1, 2005

Wong on Dice is 34 pages in report format. It's the meat of what will eventually be a traditional-style book on the subject of controlling dice in a crap game for profit. Note that this has been Wong's style for many years. When he's writing a book that contains information with strong profit potential, he releases the important parts early at a higher price. The idea is that the first users of the information will get the most value. If you aren't buying this report in an attempt to get the jump on the pubic, you'll be better served waiting for the lower-priced book.

Wong explains the make-up of the report below:

Pages 3-6, "The Rules of Craps," is a rewrite of chapter 11 of Casino Tournament Strategy.

Pages 7-11, "Playing Craps in a Casino," is mostly new material. Some of the items in it appear in other books on craps and have been discussed on the Craps page of BJ21.

Pages 12-19, "Tossing Dice," covers grip and alignment and the concept of SRR, which appear in other books on craps; the rest of the chapter has never before appeared in print, including the four-item checklist Wong uses on every toss of the dice, getting an edge through correlation, the 45 different dice sets, the logic of how to choose which sets to use and why, and estimating SRR and using it to make decisions. The terms "good seven" and "bad seven" are used for the first time.

Pages 20-23, "Practice Tips," is all new to the literature. Included is a description of how you can test yourself to see if your skill has advanced to the point you have an edge over casinos.

Pages 24-28, "Money Management," is all new to the literature. Most important are the parts on estimating your edge, what to bet, come-out bets, optimal bet size, pressing bets, and estimating win rate per hour. The term "seven exposure" is used for the first time. There also is a section on betting on a random roller.

Pages 29-32 contain a glossary. Pages 33-34 contain an index.

Wong on Dice is a work in progress. It will be revised continuously based on feedback from readers. Most of the revisions will be minor, and most of the new material will be of less importance than the material that already exists. Any new material that Pi Yee Press thinks has value comparable to that of pages 7-28 will be sent to previous purchasers of the $199 manuscript. Anybody who buys Wong on Dice for $199 will automatically receive the first edition of the book, assuming Wong finishes writing it.

HE IS SELLING THIS FOR $199. DONT YOU GUYS THINK IF HE HAD ANY EDGE OVER THE CASINOS HE WOULD BE USING IT HIMSELF OR JUST TRAIN A TEAM TO MAKE A QUIET FORTUNE? JUST ANOTHER MARKETING TOOL FOR STANFORD WONG TO ADD TO HIS FORTUNE.

I THINK MOST OF THE STUFF HE SELLS IS IN PRINT IN OTHER WORDS. LIKE SCOBE HAS BOOKS OUT ON DICE MECHANICS AND CONTROL. THE INFO IN SHARP SPORTS BETTING YOU CAN BASICALLY GET JUST FROM DOING INTERNET SEARCHES.

BY THE WAY I MET STANFORD LAST YEAR AND WHILE HE IS SUPPOSEDLY VERY INTELLECTUAL HE HAS THE PERSONALITY OF A DRIED FIG.

DarrylParsons · Jan 1, 2005

I suppose each major casino would buy a copy and if it has any merit, they will have eliminated the profit potential by the time the book comes out. Sounds a bit hocus pocus though...seems Wong is running out of ideas and getting desperate!?

jjgold · Jan 1, 2005

Wong is broke

just a hustler salesman

If some gambling system worked they would never sell it

krackman · Jan 1, 2005

He had a prop seminar at his office last Super Bowl which about 50 people came to. (Including yours truly) He and his side kick hit 11% of the props they gave out. Of course me knowing props are VERY beatable lost about ten dimes following them. The only winner was Wong as I think he charged a few hundred bucks each. I did not pay but wish I had to because I would of saved a ton. Good thing I had Carolina and a huge bet on Carolina +3 on the 2h. Ohh and did I tell you I went 7-2 on my own props?

Even the Krackman falls for some of this stuff sometimes. I bought a roulette system about fifteen years ago knowing wheels had some bias. In the end the only thing I had left was the system.

The only thing I know that is beatable is..

Video poker with promotions

Blackjack with deep penetration

Sports betting

There are other things you can beat but that would be cheating such as dice control by not hitting the back wall. Chip cups and inside help.

ChuckSims · Jan 1, 2005

Wong is running a scam. Just think how much money he will be able to get by selling the names of the suckers that buy his craps book.

DavidMatthews · Jan 1, 2005

Wong had a dice challenge a few months ago. They were to throw 500 throws in a live casino environment and they set the over/under at 79.5. The expected number of 7s in 500 throws is 83.33. I was skeptical and bet the over at $100 a point action points. He and his partner threw 74 7s, costing me $550.

Wong is the type to document everything and he's got quite a few throws in a live casino now to where his numbers are becoming statistically significant. It's also not unusual for him to want to make money with a book instead of live casino play as his legacy is more important to him in many ways, which I don't blame him for that. Also, he's had a history of publishing information first, even when it had real-world gambling value. A lot of his critics in the advantage gambling community have long criticized him for that.

I actually don't think if offered the above challenge bet again, I would bet the over. I probably wouldn't bet it.

Just to address another point, Wong is far from broke. As some of you know, I used to work for him in his 3,000+ square foot house in La Jolla.

Having said all that, I still am skeptical. I'm not here to defend Wong because of any personal reasons. I just think that this might be a situation to keep an open mind.

The last years SSB prop seminar props did do pretty poorly. We did a similar one with Fezzik and he didn't do too well either. I don't know if there was an edge on the props, but I wouldn't let that taint your thoughts about his dice book.

I also think that many casinos will always have a "bring-it-on" mentality when it comes to craps. For every person that possibly can "throw" there'll be plenty that think they can, but can't. Also, many casino people feel as the other people in this thread do, that controlled-throws is hocus pocus, so they won't try to stop it. Just my opinion.

David

GreenDoberman · Jan 1, 2005

Wong has contributed much valuable information, mainly in the area of blackjack.
There are not many people with his intellectual capacities that have sparkling personalities, myself included.
I am skeptical of his craps work, however, he has the right to sell and market what he chooses just as the consumer has the right to buy or not buy.

Woody0 · Jan 1, 2005

I'm also highly sceptical of being able to "set" the dice and achieve non-random results.

However I once witnessed an unusual throw. A group of young guys seemed to be out having a good time. The shooter launched the dice into the air but as they hit the table 2/3 toward the end the stickman crashed his stick down on the dice declaring no roll. When the shooter protested the stickman said "you know why" as the dice were returned to the shooter without any examination by the crew.

This was a unique experience and the only reason I can think of for the stickman to waste time was he noticed the dice being "set". By "set" I don't mean those peculiar antics that get lightly admonished by "coming out" and "throw the dice".

WildBill · Jan 2, 2005

There are ways to set the dice to where you slightly put the edge on your side. I SERIOUSLY doubt a book could teach them though and as pointed out casinos will buy this stuff up in an instant if they believed it to be true. Throwing dice perfectly is just that; perfection. It isn't something some guy with a book and a few hours practice can do.

Beyond that, if you can truly do it to some degree you have to have a team to pull it off. Hard to be a one-man show in this. There are some interesting books on the subject that have been somewhat panned in the "community", but I leave it to people to judge for themselves. It really has to be seen to believed anyways, before that it just sounds like fake boasting. I saw it done once to almost uncanny precision in a casino environment, but haven't seen it done or the people involved since.

Doug · Jan 2, 2005

How do you practice ? Buy a craps table and roll dice 8 hours a day for months or years ? It's a physical skill almost a magicians trick. I don't think many could master it. Anybody with a quick mind can learn basic card counting, this requires a "skill" similar to a champion billiards player. The casinos would quickly identify you, although I can't recall any stories of banned craps players, barring cheating. Good luck to anyone trying this. You may roll better than 1 in 6 sevens, but I doubt by a lot.

CardFather · Jan 2, 2005

There is a windfall of money, for Stanford Wong, in selling a perceived advantage play system. He has acquired a good sized client base from his book buyers and Blackjack & Sports forums.

The *real system* is moving 300-500 or more of these $199 special reports. Then if it takes off, publishing a $29 book, bringing in another windfall.

There have been countless craps-system sellers. I've noticed they all have a few things in common.

1) Information, that has little or no value, is very expensive (as compared to high quality info on Poker, Horses, Golf, BlackJack, Video Poker etc....)

2) They spend a lot more time marketing than playing

3) Casinos welcome their action with open arms (or Limo's if they play big enough)

WildBill · Jan 2, 2005

Truth is most gambling writers make next to nothing with their books. After costs and selling at wholesale prices are factored in there is very little money in it. So little in fact that Malmuth and Sklansky saw the wisdom in publishing them with their own company. Those guys along with Anthony Curtis are about the only people in the book writing community making pretty good money off of it, and it isn't from selling their own titles.

About the only way Wong is going to make a lot of money on the book is to do the advance publication trick. These days published material is more often used as promo material for websites and ongoing advice, with few expecting a decent amount of money from sales in relation to the effort they put into it. A few guys do it for ego reasons and a few do it in the interests of truly informing people.

Doug · Jan 2, 2005

I'll believe that. Can't sell too many craps books. BJ a little different, but it's been done since Thorpe. Most books devote first half to total newbies. Blackjack has changed.

CardFather · Jan 2, 2005

That may be the case for most gambling writers. "Most gambling writers" don't have the gambling buyers-list or following that Stanford Wong has. Let me assure you, there is a profit on a $199 34-page report.

Anthony Curtis, Gamblers BookClub and others have discovered gamblers really don't care what format the information is in. If they want it they'll pay for it. GBC and LVA have quite a few self-published $39 reports.

The power is in the marketing to your proven buyer lists. Stanford Wong understands this very well.

Doug · Jan 2, 2005

True CF: Wong has sold good volume with works such as " Professional Blackjack" and "sharp sports betting". What bothers me is the false personna of being Asian. He's not. Many consider Asians smart and good gamblers. He's an old white guy. He uses a racist stereotype to his advantage. He's about as Asian as George Bush.

The dice thing is a reach, IMO.

CardFather · Jan 2, 2005

The dice thing is a reach, IMO.

Reminds me of his horse systems.

Fezzik · Jan 2, 2005

A few points.

Last year, my SB props lost money. However, my live seminar at SSB showed a solid profit (I think I was 7-2). For example I alerted all that the Oak Raiders +2 punts represented as good a bet as you will ever see. Further, to this day I have gotten numerous favorable comments from any that attended including John Kelly, Stardust Line Host.

Re: Dice Control. The naysayers are right to question stuff, but in this case basic strategy is wrong. Unlike the so many hucksters, scamdicappers and general con men, Wong is the real deal. He struggles to handicap sports, but I assure you if he tells you he has an edge in a casino, he is right. I got to see it first hand, and it was enlightening.

I cannot help but wonder how many of us would pooh pooh Beat The Dealer back in 1962 when we first read it.

Think out of the box people. Controlling a die is easy compared to hitting a 90 mph baseball with a bat. If I told someone who had never played baseball before that it was possible to hit the ball consistently, they likely would say "no way".

WildBill · Jan 2, 2005

I agree on Wong specifically and his selling technique. He has created himself a virtuous cycle with the website selling books and the books selling his website. He built his credibility in the one game he did prove to do very well at, blackjack, and has built a following by exploiting very limited situations in other spots to create the aura of a complete gambler. The advance report will make a ton of money because it is almost 100% profit to him, he can send out double spaced pages of type for the advance copy and sells it with no ad budget.

Sadly I have discussed this with someone in the industry and he says without a doubt in his mind the two guys that have made the most money with book writing are none other than John Patrick and Frank Scoblete. Sad because neither exactly wrote out a truly positive strategy, they just said they did and suckers buy them up and read them. This is typical though I am told. The big book deals, the ones that get a mass market, are usually full of this sort of hype because at the end of the day, big book publishers treat gambling books as entertainment just like any work of fiction. The good publishers who also have gambling skills like Curtis and Malmuth, won't ever publish stuff like that, yet they can't sell anywhere near the number of copies that a John Patrick title will. Very sad indeed.

CardFather · Jan 2, 2005

"Think outside the box" - magnificent mantra- thanks. In many cases I would be chanting the same mantra. Not in this one. The casinos have built in counter measures. Controlling the dice may be easier that consistently hitting a 90 MPH fastball, it is quite another thing to control them in a casino environment. House rules like- hit the back wall, create a randomness many have tried to overcome and failed miserably.

There are a few websites that pitch programs on "dice control systems." A couple of which have very good marketing systems. They have put together teams, but haven't shown a long term profit.

There was a little old man in downtown Las Vegas that owned a furniture store. He had a dice control system for sale for a few hundred bucks. He had a casino craps table set up in his store. He taught those willing to pay and practiced throwing dice for countless hours daily.

How's your poker game coming Fezz ?

Doug · Jan 2, 2005

Fezzik said:
Last year, my SB props lost money. However, my live seminar at SSB showed a solid profit (I think I was 7-2). For example I alerted all that the Oak Raiders +2 punts represented as good a bet as you will ever see. Further, to this day I have gotten numerous favorable comments from any that attended including John Kelly, Stardust Line Host.

Re: Dice Control. The naysayers are right to question stuff, but in this case basic strategy is wrong. Unlike the so many hucksters, scamdicappers and general con men, Wong is the real deal. He struggles to handicap sports, but I assure you if he tells you he has an edge in a casino, he is right. I got to see it first hand, and it was enlightening.

I cannot help but wonder how many of us would pooh pooh Beat The Dealer back in 1962 when we first read it.

Think out of the box people. Controlling a die is easy compared to hitting a 90 mph baseball with a bat. If I told someone who had never played baseball before that it was possible to hit the ball consistently, they likely would say "no way".

Fezz: How about responding to the can't beat -110 thread, it relates to you.