I was watching the Repeat of the World series of Poker champions last night and

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watching some them just get a TON of great hole cards...I do not think I have seen so many wired pairs hole cards ...I mean there were KK all of the table and people pulling river cards out there azz!!

..WHO CAN NOT make the decision to go ALL IN with KK???...LUCK Is 90% in poker I am learning that more and more.... and alot of those guys at that great table of players got LUCKY IMHO
 

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This article is written by the late Andrew N.S. Glazer, the Poker Pundit.


How Much Luck Is There In Poker?


Beginning poker players and advanced poker players rarely concern themselves with the same questions, but there is one question that virtually all poker players, regardless of skill, ask themselves on a regular basis: how much luck is there in poker?
Rank beginners tend to treat poker much like they would treat craps, roulette, or other pure chance games. They think they'll win if they catch good cards and lose if they don't.

As players start to learn a little, they recognize how much more they now know than they did before, usually overrating their newfound abilities, and they pass through a stage where they feel there is very little luck in poker.

When players become truly advanced, their view on luck is a bit tougher to pin down. Most great players have big poker egos, and that kind of ego does not allow them to view their game as one where luck plays much of a role. Yet these great players do not always win, even when they are playing against clearly inferior opposition.

That leaves us with one of two possible conclusions. Either there is luck in poker, even at the highest levels, or the great players don't always play well. I think both statements are true.

When players of vastly different skill levels meet one another, there is not much luck in poker. Although even a rank beginner can get lucky against good players for a brief period, if there really is a big difference in skill, the beginner might as well be trying to hit a lottery ticket, over the long run.

When players of equal skill level meet, luck plays a very important role. The trick, of course, is that it is very unusual for players who are truly equal in skill level to meet. There are so many different kinds of skills possible in poker—the number might be 50 or 500, depending on how narrowly you want to define "skill"—that even if two players possess the same number of skills (let's say 28 of the 50), they aren't going to be the same 28 skills.

Further, unless you're playing a heads-up match, in a typical game there will be a mix of players at different skill levels. The thought of nine exactly equal players sitting down is almost impossible to imagine. Usually the better players take down the money, but it's very clear that the worst player at the table sometimes walks away with the cash, and there's no way to explain that other than luck—short term luck, to be sure, but luck just the same.

Most advanced players are willing to concede the existence of short-term luck, but most of them believe, quite rightly, that in the long term, the better players will get the money. How can we reconcile this correct statement with the equally correct observation that top players frequently go broke, or go on very extended losing streaks?

In most cases, I think these streaks of "running bad" are not the result of several months or years of phenomenally bad luck. Usually, they happen because the hugely talented player makes one or more the following mistakes:

1) Plays for too high an amount, relative to his bankroll. Generally, a player plays his best poker when the amount of money at stake matters, but isn't life changing. Great players tend to seek high stakes games. If the amount at risk is too high, some players can't play optimally. They have to pull in their horns, and not make good percentage plays that add to fluctuations. This makes it harder to win. If the player loses a lot in one of these games, he may be forced into playing games that are so small that he either does not respect his opponents or his chips, and either of those mistakes can lead to more losing.

2) Goes on emotional tilt and as a result does not play up to his or her abilities. A nearly universal problem. Some players are far more susceptible to it than others. If a player truly has been the recipient of bad luck for a while, usually it becomes easier for that player to go on tilt. A small amount of bad luck thus brings on bad play, which leads to more losing and more tilting. A "good" player who never goes on tilt will almost certainly win more money, long run, than a "great" player who is vulnerable to tilting. A very interesting question, for me, is whether we should still define the "great" player as great, if he has this weakness, and if we should define the "good" player as merely good, if he doesn't have it.

3) Always or almost always plays with players who are even better than he is. If you are the 10th best hold'em player in the world, and only play in games with the top nine, you're going to lose. If you're the 5,000th best, and only play in games with players "ranked" below 10,000, you're going to kick butt. This is another instance of a player's ego getting in the way of his results.

4) Drug or alcohol use. Another classic Achilles heel. Professional poker players often choose the poker path, rather than floor trading on a stock exchange or working for a big company, because they like the independent lifestyle. They like being able to get up when they want and go wherever they want. This sort of freedom also makes it easier for someone to indulge in bad habits. The late Stu Ungar was almost certainly the greatest player who ever lived, when he was clean and on his game. But he went through long periods of being broke, because his bad habits got the better of him.

5) Becomes so overconfident that he starts making sub-par plays, or playing too many hands, figuring he can outplay people later. Another classic ego mistake: "I'm so good, I don't have to play perfectly." Once again, I have to debate whether a player who makes this kind of mistake is really that great.

So, if a hugely talented player makes one or more of these mistakes, is it right to call that player hugely talented? Probably. Is that player "better" than someone with less ability or experience but who always plays his best? That's tougher to answer, but I think you can tell my view is that what seems like bad luck is very often the result of bad play. There's absolutely no question that bad luck happens. How much you let it affect you separates the winners from the losers.

There's a marvelous, terrific, outstanding line in the poker novel Shut Up and Deal. It's so good that I really wish I had invented it. Paraphrased in a form that fits this article, it is: "The skill is not what is hard about poker. The skill is easy. The luck is hard. A lot of people can learn to be skilled. Very few people can handle the bad luck."

Finally, I think luck is very situation specific. What's more unlucky, an opponent who in a 10-20 game catches two consecutive perfect cards on the turn and river to make four of a kind and beat your full house (at odds of more than 1,000-1 against), or an opponent who has nine outs to make his flush on the last card and beat you at the end of the final hand of the World Series of Poker, and he catches the card at odds about 4-1 against? Timing can be everything.

This complex set of variables starts to explain why I can't simply say something like "Poker is 60% skill and 40% luck." The amount of luck found in poker is a very complex question. I do know this much: if forced to choose, my ego would choose that I be good. My wallet would prefer that I be lucky, every time.


This article is written by Andrew N.S. Glazer, the Poker Pundit.
 

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Dante... they don't show every hand... it's not exciting TV when everyone folds except the BB..
 

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The thing is Dante, good poker players have a small advantage over weaker players and will get the money more times than not over a weaker player.

Much like video poker, you have to get lucky to win in one particular session or week, but over the LONGTERM the intelligent videopoker player will destroy the casino............as SKILL will override LUCK in the longterm.

-FISHHEAD-

ps- Also remember, when you are watching poker tournaments on TV, you are usually only viewing the final table............where in many aspects luck does play a bigger factor due to many circumstances, one being blind/stack ratios. However, the skillful player can also use this as their advantage if they are a skilled player.
 

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Exactly. I think we see about less than .01% of all the poker that gets played. So yeah, they will show the exciting hands like we're watching that show Tilt.

The final table takes 2 days sometimes, I mean they show that in one episode
 

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thanks guys I knew they do not show all the hand I just did not realize how few hands they show until now
 

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You won't see many pro players going all in pre flop unless they have to. Especially with a very strong hand, and most definately not against a weaker player. The beauty is for the better guys to simply outplay or outbluff the guy. And even though they are weaker, they have to have some knowledge, and have to have enough brains to sometimes lay down the best hand. So even though they might lay down the best hand from time to time, that is not what necessarily makes them weak.But the flipside is the maniac who calls with anything and everything. Generally they are eliminated earlier, but they are like a grenade, they kill or cripple a lot of people if the catch enough cards.

Moneymaker rode that all the way to the win. He is without a doubt one of the worst players I have seen, and played against, in a big game setting. I can honestly say I have played with him more than a dozen times, and I have NEVER, and I mean NEVER seen him leave a table with more money than he sat down with, and unless the game broke up, he usually left empty.

So even when you see these guys win bracelets and multiple tourneys, take it into perspective.

Even Daniel Negraneau. He is the hottest guy going right now, but until last year he didn'y have a pot to piss in. I have seen him spend 25k to 30K in $1000 buy in tournies and not cash. If he didn't cash for awhile he would disappear untilhe got someone to stake him.

Trust me, this whole glamourization of these guys is nothing less than reality TV. It is much more damaging to promote and hype these guys than it is to allow sportsbook banners or advertising on these networks.


how many losers are going to be floating into town with 10k they got buy taking a 4th or 5th mortgage out on their house for a chance to win the "big one"> And a lot of these guys don't even get that far, they join a side game or a lower tourny and lose, and then they have to win to get enough to get their original buy in back, and a lot of them lose it all without a chance at all.

It is a vicious circle, and one that is most definately one that these shows and stations do not want you to know about. I give it another year or so befor epeople start showing up on talkshows telling their sob stories, then the bubble will burst. Which may or may not be a bad thing, depending on your morality.
 

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wanti...Great post and I beleive it and have thought those exact things...
 

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The best thing the top pros are doing is cashing in on their fame.

Some very good money to be found in writing books, endorsements, seminars, producing CD's.

Heck, PHIL HELLMOUTH charges $50,000 for setting up a weekend poker tournament and shooting the **** with your group of fellow friends or businessmen.
 

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Truth be known, 98%+ of aspiring/newbie poker players would be better off financially if they pursued videopoker instead.


-F-
 

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RobFunk said:
LOL. .I thought Phil was your idol

I have no problem with Phil, he is someone every gambler can and should look up to and learn the finer points of how being egotistical can improve your profits in gambling.

Having a HUGE EGO is a very common trait in the majority of all successful gamblers............not all, but the majority.

I trully respect all successful gamblers with huge egos! In fact, over the many years, they are the ones that I listen to the most and have learned the most from.

-F-
 

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Fishhead said:
Truth be known, 98%+ of aspiring/newbie poker players would be better off financially if they pursued videopoker instead.


-F-
you will be demostrating this again at the BASH 05??
 

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Fishhead said:
Truth be known, 98%+ of aspiring/newbie poker players would be better off financially if they pursued videopoker instead.


-F-

Fish, in RI, the video poker machines FLASHES the best statistical option. What else could we do to beat the house?

I didn't realize one could actually beat the house - can you direct me to a place where I can read about how?
 

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Cincy-- One can defeat the house on Videopoker and Blackjack(slots also, but you are really defeating other players more so than the house).

Alot will depend all what locations throughout the United States you will be playing at.

BJ has different variations troughout the entire country and abroad.

Video poker on the other hand is only trully regulated in the state of Nevada, even though the majority of 100%+ paying machines are on the up and up throughout other parts of the country.

-F-
 

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I used to play with Phil A LOT here in Californi. He is a VERY good player, a lot better than guys that are highlighted all the time. His only weakness, as mine is, he gives people too much credit when they bet large, automatically assuming they have the nutz or close to it. So he is easyto bluff off pots. But like me, he isn't someone you like having call you when you are trying to steal. You might push him off a meium pot or two, but when he gets all or a lot of his money in he generally has the goods. So that fact makes a lot of people leery of him. The check raises and always showing the nuts when you do slows down a lot of buffs. You notice when he does get on TV that the pro players who know him don't bluff him too much.


But in terms of poker knowledge he is one of the best. He just lacks some of the "reading" abilities that some people have. Which is sometimes good. When you aren't guessing then you can't get busted. Playing the nutz all the time isn't always going to make you rich, but it gives you a presence and helos you grind it out. He is more suited to win at cash games rather than tournies. I think he just does the tournies to get face time to help him keep his business ventures resh.

But he is an azzhole, until he gets to know you a little bit, then he is just a jerk off.
 

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Fishhead said:
The thing is Dante, good poker players have a small advantage over weaker players and will get the money more times than not over a weaker player.

Much like video poker, you have to get lucky to win in one particular session or week, but over the LONGTERM the intelligent videopoker player will destroy the casino............as SKILL will override LUCK in the longterm.

-FISHHEAD-

ps- Also remember, when you are watching poker tournaments on TV, you are usually only viewing the final table............where in many aspects luck does play a bigger factor due to many circumstances, one being blind/stack ratios. However, the skillful player can also use this as their advantage if they are a skilled player.


fish,

how do you beat video poker? its programmed to payout at 90-97 percent depending on where you are.
 

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Wantitall,

Ok, I call.


He is more suited to win at cash games rather than tournies.

You just posted this about Hellmuth.... and I can't remember ever hearing about him kicking any ass in any of the large cash games. I've never seen his name mentioned as far as playing at Bellagio or involved with Andy Beal. One would think that if he's such a cash game specialist then Doyle, Chip and the rest of the gang would invite him to participate. And if he gives too much credit for a large bet in a tourney then how's he going to play with his own money? Calling off $100,000 in tourney chips is a lot different than reaching in your own wallet for it, so to speak. From what I've read the cash game players consider his strictly a tournament player.... and an *******, like you said earlier.
 

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i watched one of the shows last night....the young Gavin Griffin kid was awesome.
 

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Gavin and his girlfriend are two of the nicest people I've dealt with in the poker world.

He's a class act without an ego and I wish him the best of luck.
 

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