I throw my hands in the air. I just don't get baseball

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Someone explain to me the inexplicable way managers use pitchers in the only game I love, the only sport I've followed since boyhood.

Why oh why do managers respect pitchers' 'status' above considerations for winning a game?

4-4 tie, bottom of the ninth. Dodgers have the best relief pitcher in baseball sitting on his a$$ in the pen. Instead, they bring in Giovanni Carrara and his bulging ERA of almost 5.00. Why?! So that they can save Gagne for the save. Of course, if Carrara can't hold the game at a tie, there IS no chance for a save. Sure, if you bring Gagne in now, and he holds the tie, and the Dodgers take a lead, Gagne may be 'wasted' and unavailable for the save opportunity. But that's a helluva lot of 'ifs'. This way, you bring in Carrara, and if he blows it, you NEVER see Gagne.

And of course, that's what happens. Carrara yields a double. Then the biggest loser play in baseball, the intentional walk. A sac bunt attempt turns into blundered defense and bases jammed with no one out.

Chances of winning are virtually nil, at this point. Bases jacked, no out, bottom 9th...you're basically toast. But wait, two things stand in the Dodgers favor:

1) The atrocious Kelly Stinnet is up, and pinch hitting at that.
2) THEY HAVE GAGNE IN THE PEN, a strike-out machine.

But do they bring in the big guy? Nope! Why? I have no idea. Because there's no chance for him to get a 'save', I guess. But without Gagne, the Dodgers have no chance for a W...which last I checked, is more important than save stats. Of cours, our man Giovanni WALKS in the winning run against the putrid Stinnett...and the Dodgers lose.

If the save statistic had never been invented in 1969, managers would simply put in the best pitcher in every situation. They would play to WIN games, rather than pad pitchers' stats. And the game would have a hell of a lot more integrity.

I wonder what will happen if the 'hold' statistic ever becomes official. I'm actually in favor of the hold, as it rewards middle relievers, who contribute mightily to the welfare of a team but who rarely get any credit for anything. But seeing how the save stat has been abused makes me think twice about that. Consider this: nowadays, when the 'hold' is not an official stat, in situations where a team is down by a run in the 7th or 8th inning, the manager will bring in his best setup men/short-guys to keep the deficit manageable. But if 'hold's become official, no doubt there will arise designated 'hold' guys, just as there are designated 'save' guys today. The 'hold' guy will probably be the 2nd best pitcher in the pen behind the closer. And so, while managers are 'free' to use that pitcher in close games in which they're either winning or losing today, if the 'hold' becomes official, they'll no doubt be reluctant to use that pitcher to keep a deficit at a run...because, well, then you'll be blowing his opportunity to get a hold! So instead, they'll let scrubs pitch longer...to the detriment of the team. The deficit will climb to 3 or 4 runs, and neither the best pitcher (the closer) nor the 2nd best one (the holder) will have a chance to pitch.

That's baseball brilliance for ya!
 

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dogs24 said:
Someone explain to me the inexplicable way managers use pitchers in the only game I love, the only sport I've followed since boyhood.

Why oh why do managers respect pitchers' 'status' above considerations for winning a game?

4-4 tie, bottom of the ninth. Dodgers have the best relief pitcher in baseball sitting on his a$$ in the pen. Instead, they bring in Giovanni Carrara and his bulging ERA of almost 5.00. Why?! So that they can save Gagne for the save. Of course, if Carrara can't hold the game at a tie, there IS no chance for a save. Sure, if you bring Gagne in now, and he holds the tie, and the Dodgers take a lead, Gagne may be 'wasted' and unavailable for the save opportunity. But that's a helluva lot of 'ifs'. This way, you bring in Carrara, and if he blows it, you NEVER see Gagne.

And of course, that's what happens. Carrara yields a double. Then the biggest loser play in baseball, the intentional walk. A sac bunt attempt turns into blundered defense and bases jammed with no one out.

Chances of winning are virtually nil, at this point. Bases jacked, no out, bottom 9th...you're basically toast. But wait, two things stand in the Dodgers favor:

1) The atrocious Kelly Stinnet is up, and pinch hitting at that.
2) THEY HAVE GAGNE IN THE PEN, a strike-out machine.

But do they bring in the big guy? Nope! Why? I have no idea. Because there's no chance for him to get a 'save', I guess. But without Gagne, the Dodgers have no chance for a W...which last I checked, is more important than save stats. Of cours, our man Giovanni WALKS in the winning run against the putrid Stinnett...and the Dodgers lose.

If the save statistic had never been invented in 1969, managers would simply put in the best pitcher in every situation. They would play to WIN games, rather than pad pitchers' stats. And the game would have a hell of a lot more integrity.

I wonder what will happen if the 'hold' statistic ever becomes official. I'm actually in favor of the hold, as it rewards middle relievers, who contribute mightily to the welfare of a team but who rarely get any credit for anything. But seeing how the save stat has been abused makes me think twice about that. Consider this: nowadays, when the 'hold' is not an official stat, in situations where a team is down by a run in the 7th or 8th inning, the manager will bring in his best setup men/short-guys to keep the deficit manageable. But if 'hold's become official, no doubt there will arise designated 'hold' guys, just as there are designated 'save' guys today. The 'hold' guy will probably be the 2nd best pitcher in the pen behind the closer. And so, while managers are 'free' to use that pitcher in close games in which they're either winning or losing today, if the 'hold' becomes official, they'll no doubt be reluctant to use that pitcher to keep a deficit at a run...because, well, then you'll be blowing his opportunity to get a hold! So instead, they'll let scrubs pitch longer...to the detriment of the team. The deficit will climb to 3 or 4 runs, and neither the best pitcher (the closer) nor the 2nd best one (the holder) will have a chance to pitch.

That's baseball brilliance for ya!

I was thinking the exact same thing, and I had a wager on the Arizona Diamondbacks. Considered myself very fortunate not to see Gagne in there.
 

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A simple answer to the question.

Just using Gagne in save situations will give him more than enough work for the year. He will be overused if he is put in the game for every tie game in the ninth.

IS
 

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Yea man, this is not football with a 16 game scedule. Your theroy would be fine for tonight. But if Tracy does that everytime the situation comes up EG will be wasted by the end of the season. The only manager that does it the way your talking is Phil Garner in Houston. I promise you by the end of the season Brad Lidge is going to be worthless.
 

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its like filing a coin at times with bases 50/50 chance to win ..sorry to hear about your loss dogs
 

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