Are recreational books like VIP shit books?

According to chuck and some others they are. But are they?

Some will claim they are only good for losers and I agree. The problem is that 97% of all players are losers meaning that they are good for almost every player

Guys in forumville are NOT the typical player. If you are SBR where would you recommend SBR send a new/beginer player betting $10 a game?? CRIS , Pinny? No. They dont want that.

Yea and I know the arguement very well; that it takes suckers away from the real books, and they need the suckers. But the suckers dont want to get fed to the Lions at Cris or Pinny just yet!!

The squares love a book like VIP or even Bet365 and thats what SBR tries to do; send players to the books that fit their style. Squares dont care about the sportsbook food chain theory(even though there is some validity in it), they want a great big bonus on their $100 deposit and great customer service and they wont get that at Pinny, Grande, Oly, Cris, ect.

Bottom line; you can call vip and the entire group shit books but they happen to be good books that are perfect matches for the novice.

Nevermind VIP, how about Bodog? They are the shining example to me.

Send them to Hollywood.

John, What is VIP's policy when one of their losers says, "I want to bet more than the max"? Send them to Pinnacle or raise their limits and let them continue to lose more money? So VIP cultivates only losers, and bars anyone from winning. Thats not a sportsbook. Its true, 97% of all sport bettors are losers. Then why can't VIP accept the so very few to make a little money betting sports?

Then why can't VIP accept the so very few to make a little money betting sports?<!-- / message -->

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Rather than have a few guys take out the money, VIP gives a lot back. They run a 10 - 20% re up bonus and a very strong rewards program.

You can't do it all. You dont see Pinny or Cris giving re ups of even 1% much less 20%. There is good reason why sharp books dont give big bonuses and sqare books dont allow scalpers and sharp action. AcesGold was the last one that tried.

A true sharp knows what the deal is and how it works.

Yeah, if you are scalping baseball overnights to make a $10 profit you aren't going to last very long. You should know the linesman isn't glued to the DB screen at 3AM and you know those lines are up there so gamblers can have fun with the $300 betting limit. VIP is not going to let 5 stocktraders give them lopsided action each night. If VIP wanted to book to Pinnacle they know where to find Henry.

A smart player can last a long time at books like VIP because they respect the fact that these shops are not market traders. A lot of value can be found without punishing a recreational book's props wagering department.

If you are one of those players who are limited because you were betting limits and price shopping, I can see how you would be disappointed. But, were the good numbers you did play worth the time it took to sign up?

Don't get me wrong, I'd like to see advantage players have more options. The reality is that many players can't play at a Bodog and VIP because they choose to have a hamburger instead of milking the cow.

There seems to be some people in these forums that think the size of ones play determines the dif. between "loser" & "sharp". Hang whatever name you like on a bettor. The bottom line at the end of the day is, has he or she won $$. For the guys here where the be all and end all is gaming the term "sharp" MAY apply. But there are many and I`m one who have other interests. I DON`T bet "dimes" the most I bet LY was 500 once. Usually 1-3, if that puts me in the square hole so be it. I do it for fun and the rush of the "action". I spend a fair amount of time on FB and love this forum to exchange ideas on the CFB scene. I play with the BR I set aside for that purpose alone and consider it my gift to me. Finished "up" 5 of the last 7 yrs, and I ENJOY IT. Pinny is great for the BIG guys but I prefer Sky, VIP and a few others. To each his own. I wil say that this is the 1st yr I`ve bet MLB very much and Pinny is hands down the best for that.

JohnBuzz said:

Rather than have a few guys take out the money, VIP gives a lot back. They run a 10 - 20% re up bonus and a very strong rewards program.

You can't do it all. You dont see Pinny or Cris giving re ups of even 1% much less 20%. There is good reason why sharp books dont give big bonuses and sqare books dont allow scalpers and sharp action. AcesGold was the last one that tried.

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CRIS almost constantly offer 20% reload bonuses (Bonus Plays) and they also have a great rewards program. CRIS is so much better than the VIP group that it's almost ridicolous comparing the two.

"Perfect matches for the novice"???

Buzz,
Give me a break. These books inflate the favs and the over to RIP OFF uninformed gamblers.
That's not a perfect fit -- that's taking advantage of them.

What do these guys do during the slow season -- construction for old ladies?

Are recreational books like VIP shit books?

Might as well ask the question, "Are bettors who make money shit bettors?"

Recreational books like VIP are fine. I can work with them. I've been making money for years at VIP family books and have never been restricted.

A couple rec books have restricted me. When it happens, I just accept it and move on.

If I thought it was a book's duty to make things as easy as possible for all players, then I might have a complaint. But I am able to put myself in their shoes. Like me, they're trying to make money.

These arguments about the lines they offer "taking advantage of players" are as absurd as it gets. It's starting to sound like a vendetta when you're working that hard to trump up complaints. Are people being forced to play certain lines at gunpoint now?

That aside, I've been finding and playing lots of good lines at VIP books for years (with, as I say, no restrictions). Payouts are handled well. I wouldn't rate them as high as 5 Dimes or Olympic for the lower $$$ player but they'e fine.

JohnBuzz said:

According to chuck and some others they are. But are they?

Some will claim they are only good for losers and I agree. The problem is that 97% of all players are losers meaning that they are good for almost every player

Guys in forumville are NOT the typical player. If you are SBR where would you recommend SBR send a new/beginer player betting $10 a game?? CRIS , Pinny? No. They dont want that.

Yea and I know the arguement very well; that it takes suckers away from the real books, and they need the suckers. But the suckers dont want to get fed to the Lions at Cris or Pinny just yet!!

The squares love a book like VIP or even Bet365 and thats what SBR tries to do; send players to the books that fit their style. Squares dont care about the sportsbook food chain theory(even though there is some validity in it), they want a great big bonus on their $100 deposit and great customer service and they wont get that at Pinny, Grande, Oly, Cris, ect.

Bottom line; you can call vip and the entire group shit books but they happen to be good books that are perfect matches for the novice.

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One of the dumbest posts I have ever seen. Those that hang out in "SBRville" are the same people that hangout in "forumville". The bottom line is you are getting paid out of your ass to give them that rating. You know they are robbing the poor bastard that likes to play favorites just as well as I do. How the hell is that a good fit and deserve an A plus rating? Yeah, that is what I thought.

Groucho said:

Are recreational books like VIP shit books?

These arguments about the lines they offer "taking advantage of players" are as absurd as it gets. It's starting to sound like a vendetta when you're working that hard to trump up complaints. Are people being forced to play certain lines at gunpoint now?

That aside, I've been finding and playing lots of good lines at VIP books for years (with, as I say, no restrictions). Payouts are handled well. I wouldn't rate them as high as 5 Dimes or Olympic for the lower $$$ player but they'e fine.

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Boo hoo. What's absurd are pathetic apologies being tossed around this thread.
The fact that you've been unrestricted at VIP for years tells speaks volumes about your abilities.

I've thought long and hard about this issue and here's where I come out...

VIP is not a shit book because their barring practices and lower than average limits are the only disadvantages I see. Otherwise they offer players a reasonable deal and are reliable and solid. Customer service I can't comment on from my own experience but I understand that's quite good also.

My point is that they have no business being rated A+ right alongside the giants like Pinnacle, Oly and CRIS. Probably A- is the most accurate, but I could compromise and live with just an A.

Why is the barring practice a problem!? It is not the barring practice PER SE, but the way it is done AUTOMATICALLY AND SYSTEMATICALLY for players who tend to bet DOGS and SHOP FOR LINES.

This effectively renders one side of the line unbettable and makes the whole offer deceptive. It's ethically equivalent to a dual line which, if this industry ever got regulated WOULD NEVER FLY. What VIP does is a shade better than a dual line because it's just slightly less automated and systematic, but the main idea is the same...

The book PRETENDS to have a LEGITIMATE dime line, meaning here's your TWO-SIDED offering, yet it turns out the offer is really only ONE-SIDED. They might as well only post the favorite line and beside the dog they should put an asterisk and say "call to discuss your options with the boss to see if you qualify". That would be 100% HONEST. But NO, they claim to have a dime line which a poor sucker equates with good value because he read recommendations from Fezzik and other experts that dime lines are better than 20c lines. Little does the poor sucker know he's being duped. The line LOOKS like a dime line but it really isn't because the DOG is only available under severely restricted conditions and the FAV is deliberatly underpriced.

It's underhanded trickery plain and simple. It's nice to hide behind the "sharp" or "professional" fuzzy umbrella which can't really be defined when the reality is VIP boots all dog-playing line-shoppers. If they said that loud and clear rather than downplaying the number of players they boot and the reasons, then I'd have less of a problem with it. Even so, an A+ rating, which is supposed to indicate the top few books in the world, is a complete farce in their case.

This post is about the family of books as a whole, not just VIP.

Buzz, How can a book have the following issues and still be an A+ when there are many other books that offer everything this group does and doesn't have these issues....


*BONUS ISSUES: There were a ton of complaints in the past on casino message boards and a few on the sports message boards regarding them not honoring the promotions their adverstise. These stemmed from the fact that the player had previously played at a sister site, problem was nowhere on their site was there any mention of their sister sites at the time. Then on top of that after not granting the player the adverstised sign up bonus they would make the player pay fees if they decided to cash out without playing.
So bascially they would trap deposits with false advertisements. Then when affiliates and webmasters took them to task on the unethical behavior they either didn't respond or responded rudely without resolving the issue.

*SPORTSBOOK MODEL ISSUES: of course there is no problem with square books. But why should a book that boots most sharp players be an A+ when there are other shops that are just as good for small players who also treat bigger players better. Point is that if they are A+ you could probably add 20 other books that are just as safe for small players who offer the same advantages. Not too mention all the other points others have posted about their model.

MY PERSONAL ISSUE OF HAVING $1000 STOLEN BY GAMEDAY: Granted it was extreme circumstances and I was bailed out by Royal. I had deposited $1000 using Securebuxx and after securebuxx went under Gameday refused to pay the $1000 I had deposited. While it was a tough situation for them they made the wrong choice, the other books in the same situation both paid. I had even called Gameday to ask about my deposit before making it and they said all was good. I got to speak with the higher ups in this case and the manager was rude and didn't budge.

So no matter how you deposit your funds are not safe at this group. If you deposit by Neteller and Neteller later goes under ( slim chance, I know, just an example) before VIP gets their money from them they won't pay you. If the situation was reversed and Gameday had payed me $1000 and Securebuxx went under a few weeks later before I cashed out I assure you Gameday wouldn't send me another $1000 a different method.

Of course when I was dealing with this issue years ago the ONLY person who aggreed with Gameday's actions was BUZZ. No other watchdogs, sportsbooks or fellow players thought Gameday was acting appropriately.
That tells you something about the relationship between Buzz and VIP group right there. They can do no wrong in his book no matter what they do.



SPENDING BIG MONEY ON ADVERTISING AND HAVING A LARGE OPERATION WITH LOTS OF MONEY AND BIG OFFICES SHOULD NOT MAKE A BOOK A+.

lander said:

"Perfect matches for the novice"???

Buzz,
Give me a break. These books inflate the favs and the over to RIP OFF uninformed gamblers.
That's not a perfect fit -- that's taking advantage of them.

What do these guys do during the slow season -- construction for old ladies?

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John, this is my complaint also. VIP IS ripping off the novice bettor! It is actually crooked for VIP to inflate the fav and then toss out or limit bettors to $50 bets when he wants to bet the dog. This type of booking should be frowned upon not given a A+ rating.

Personally I'd rather see books like Pinnacle, CRIS and Olympic get the majority of the square money. Books like VIP do little for the industry except bloodsuck uninformed new bettors.

Are they a shit book? I don't think so. Are they an A+ book? Well that depends what your criteria is.

What is your criteria? I notice my old book WSEX is an A, how come they are not an A+? Customer service is unparalleled, you can always get to the top dog if you have a problem. Web site speed is unmatched. Nobody else offers as many interactive events. And I don't think anyone would question their financial strength or years in business.

What do the A+ books up top do that WSEX doesn't? Because I can point out a few things that they do that the books up top don't.

All of your A+ books are financially sound to the best of my knowledge.

i have said it before and will say it again.bodog makes vip look like pinnacle.you want to get the hook from a book make 10-20 underdog bets at bodog.you will see a dual line so fast it will make your focking head spin.not to mention you will be paying -115 on your 50 dollar limit.

JohnBuzz said:

If the “real” books want a bigger share of the square market then they need to setup a product to compete with the VIP’s of the world. A model like Spiros comes to mind with Oly for sharps and BetJamaica for squares.

Royalfan, VIP does not pay the most so you only show your ignorance stating something you actually know nothing about. MyBookie pays the most and they are currently rated a C. BoDog pays more and so do at least 50 other books. VIP, like every book on the SBR list, has earned their spot. We even had books on the list for years that paid nothing.

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Um, okay, I believe you. Good stuff. Saying that 50 books pay more makes you look like the ignorant one.