Drive Bys at the blackjack table!

Paterno · Jun 21, 2005

Just got back from Vegas for the weekend. There is only one thing that got on my nerve the entire time......Drive Bys!

These are jackasses who come in the middle of the shoe, put one wager down and leave.

I thought I would be immuned to this occurence at the $25 tables but I must have witnessed 35 a night during my play.

RobFunk · Jun 21, 2005

Were they usually winning these plays, or betting big? Maybe someone was counting at your table and signaling for a 'gorilla' to come by when the deck was rich in tens.

But if they're just placing one wager, then probably not.

Mr.Leisure · Jun 21, 2005

SCnit said:
Just got back from Vegas for the weekend. There is only one thing that got on my nerve the entire time......Drive Bys!

These are jackasses who come in the middle of the shoe, put one wager down and leave.

I thought I would be immuned to this occurence at the $25 tables but I must have witnessed 35 a night during my play.

I`m a novice bj player so answer me this why would a player do this and how does it affect your play?
thanks

RobFunk · Jun 21, 2005

Mr. Leisure said:
I`m a novice bj player so answer me this why would a player do this and how does it affect your play?
thanks

It really does'nt Mr. Leisure. Same thing as sitting between players that are'nt using basic strategy making silly plays like hitting on 15 vs. 4 and things like that. No matter how erratic the play is surrounding you, statistically the house edge will always remain the same.

sherman · Jun 21, 2005

RobFunk said:
It really does'nt Mr. Leisure. Same thing as sitting between players that are'nt using basic strategy making silly plays like hitting on 15 vs. 4 and things like that. No matter how erratic the play is surrounding you, statistically the house edge will always remain the same.

amen,.....

Paterno · Jun 21, 2005

I knew it didnt effect me and there were plenty of players not playing basic strategy during the weekend. I never got mad or pissed about that, its the guys getting change and putting 1 bet down or just putting a bet down as they walk by. It just annoyed me after awhile..I guess zero patience.

On a side note, I believe I was ridiculed more than half the time for hitting soft 18 against a face card. Amazing!

Baker · Jun 21, 2005

RobFunk said:
It really does'nt Mr. Leisure. Same thing as sitting between players that are'nt using basic strategy making silly plays like hitting on 15 vs. 4 and things like that. No matter how erratic the play is surrounding you, statistically the house edge will always remain the same.

I would disagree with this. If a perosn is playing two hands heads up against the dealer and the count becomes advantageous a new player entering at that time could cannibalize some of the advantage.

RobFunk · Jun 21, 2005

Baker said:
I would disagree with this. If a perosn is playing two hands heads up against the dealer and the count becomes advantageous a new player entering at that time could cannibalize some of the advantage.

Maybe. But that scenario is very hypothetical. There really is'nt enough mathematical detail about the situation to give that too much thought. I think he was just more less annoyed with different people often dropping by and playing a hand, and then leaving.

Baker · Jun 21, 2005

RobFunk said:
Maybe. But that scenario is very hypothetical. There really is'nt enough mathematical detail about the situation to give that too much thought. I think he was just more less annoyed with different people often dropping by and playing a hand, and then leaving.

Mr Leisure asked why a player would jump in and how it would affect your play. You answered that it is the same as if a player is playing erratically around you and that statistically the house advantage will always remain the same. Both of these statements you made were incorrect.

BJ is a game where the outcome of each play is dependent on previous events, unlike roulette or craps where every outcome is independent. Although the house does have a long-term advantage there is not a fixed negative expectation as in roulette and craps. Throughout each deck or shoe the actual expected value of the next hand varies, most of the time favoring the house but sometimes favoring the player. A "drive-by" at a point where the player has a positive expected value would negatively affect the other players long-term profits.

RobFunk · Jun 21, 2005

Baker said:
Mr Leisure asked why a player would jump in and how it would affect your play. You answered that it is the same as if a player is playing erratically around you and that statistically the house advantage will always remain the same. Both of these statements you made were incorrect.

BJ is a game where the outcome of each play is dependent on previous events, unlike roulette or craps where every outcome is independent. Although the house does have a long-term advantage there is not a fixed negative expectation as in roulette and craps. Throughout each deck or shoe the actual expected value of the next hand varies, most of the time favoring the house but sometimes favoring the player. A "drive-by" at a point where the player has a positive expected value would negatively affect the other players long-term profits.

My statements are not incorrect. In what is described by SCnit, he is not expecting anything more than a normal recreational game of BJ, even with suspected team players placing a large bet on a favorable count, this still holds true for the rec player and most likely regardless.

My statements only might be incorrect, if what you theorize is true. But I have to believe Stanford Wong and other pros, when they state it does not.

I am on topic, you are assuming everyone is counting cards. That is a different debate Baker.

sherman · Jun 21, 2005

Baker said:
Mr Leisure asked why a player would jump in and how it would affect your play. You answered that it is the same as if a player is playing erratically around you and that statistically the house advantage will always remain the same. Both of these statements you made were incorrect.

BJ is a game where the outcome of each play is dependent on previous events, unlike roulette or craps where every outcome is independent. Although the house does have a long-term advantage there is not a fixed negative expectation as in roulette and craps. Throughout each deck or shoe the actual expected value of the next hand varies, most of the time favoring the house but sometimes favoring the player. A "drive-by" at a point where the player has a positive expected value would negatively affect the other players long-term profits.

how do you know they didn't "postively" effect the outcome?

Dante · Jun 21, 2005

SCnit said:
Just got back from Vegas for the weekend. There is only one thing that got on my nerve the entire time......Drive Bys!

These are jackasses who come in the middle of the shoe, put one wager down and leave.

I thought I would be immuned to this occurence at the $25 tables but I must have witnessed 35 a night during my play.

I have seen this it really sucks...these people are idiots that do this , why they do not just check in and walk to the casino cage and just hand them the gambling money is beyond me..

sherman · Jun 21, 2005

Dante said:
I have seen this it really sucks...these people are idiots that do this , why they do not just check in and walk to the casino cage and just hand them the gambling money is beyond me..

why would their chances of winning be lower than someone whom stayed at the table for hours?

Mr.Leisure · Jun 21, 2005

I play basic strategy .The last time I went to vegas I sat down at a table in the middle of a shoe .The guy next to me was upset I didn`t wait for the shuffle .The funny thing was he didn`t even know basic strategy !

sharky99 · Jun 22, 2005

I ask before coming in if it's ok and sometimes they'll say come on in to change the cards since they suck or they ask to wait, usually not a long wait anyway b/c I often play just one deck

Baker · Jun 22, 2005

sherman said:
how do you know they didn't "postively" effect the outcome?

If the count is positive (the player has an advantage) it would be impossible for additional players to positively effect the long-term outcome in regards to the players already in the game, if for this discussion you made the simple assumption that tens in the deck iare good and fives in the deck are bad. If the count was positive two things could happen, the count could become more positive, meaning the player has more of an advantage or the count could lose value, meaning less advantage for the player. In either case the addition of additional players, or the existing players playing more hands would either hasten the degradation of the advantage or dilute the advantage realized by each player.

If you were plaiying at a table and the count became positive the count will get more positive or less positive with each card that is dealt. These cards will come off of the deck or out of the shoe whether or not another player joins the game. The faster the cards come out the faster it would be possible for the count to degrade, therefore if another and took tens off of the deck it would negatively effect the players advantage by allowing them to play fewer hands with the positive count (positive expectation).

As I said the cards will come out the same whether or not other players are in the game. If the cards were to come out in a way to make the count more positive this too would be hastened with the addition of players to the table. The catch is that if no one would join the game the players in the game would gain the benefit of being able to play more hands with a positive expectation by playing the same cards to the same ending point in the deck or shoe.

WHALE · Jun 22, 2005

ahhh! :drink:

DarrylParsons · Jun 22, 2005

I can see how it can be annoying...if you hit a losing streak after the drive by you tend to irrationally blame the guy who jumped in. It is irrational though because he won't affect your expected return (unless you're counting).

In Atlantic City they have a no mid-shoe entry rule at a lot of tables, probably for this reason.

The part I really hate is when everyone blames you at third base, especially when you make the right play!

Stevo13 · Jun 22, 2005

Dante said:
I have seen this it really sucks...these people are idiots that do this , why they do not just check in and walk to the casino cage and just hand them the gambling money is beyond me..

Dante.......LOL.

I do this on a consistent basis when walking back thru the casino after eating or being out.

Always one hand and never at a table with players already at it. Its easy to find a smiling dealer with nobody playing if you can throw down a black chip.

Its that or black/red before going up.

arty:

Next time I'll try the Dante method and get to the movie in my room faster.

mj23 · Jun 22, 2005

Forget about this but how bout when you are playing at a no mid shoe entry and you have idiots who are playing 1 hand and then all of a sudden have a brain storm and start betting 2 hands and screw all the cards up. Bottom line here is it is the same as having a drive by coming in game so the no mid shoe table means s h i t!!