What constitutes a bad sports book?

CharlieMaxwell · Jun 25, 2005

A stir recently developed in the Rx posting forums when a poster asked about a sports book called VIP Sports. I just marvel at the comments some posters make about what constitutes a bad sports book.

Read Wild Bill's latest column by going to the RX home page at www.therx.com

Charlie

Fishhead · Jun 25, 2005

Thanks, great points made in this article.

TheGeneral+ · Jun 25, 2005

To say VIP is a bad book is like saying Fishhead doesn't know slots and video poker well.

CAPNCRUNCH · Jun 25, 2005

The General said:
To say VIP is a bad book is like saying Fishhead doesn't know slots and video poker well.

Or like saying Busch is a good beer!:toast:

TheGeneral+ · Jun 25, 2005

Morning Capn. It may not be the favorite for taste, but those $11 30 packs are sweet for the poor guy.

:drink:

nimue77 · Jun 25, 2005

VIP isn't "bad", they are safe - but they also are nothing special. Many, many better books to join before them.

CAPNCRUNCH · Jun 25, 2005

The General said:
Morning Capn. It may not be the favorite for taste, but those $11 30 packs are sweet for the poor guy.

:drink:

Sorry General, I've had to drink a lot worse! (Red, White, and Blue or whatever was cheapest. Busch would have been top shelf!):toast:

TheGeneral+ · Jun 25, 2005

Been a long time since I seen a red, white, and blue. I broke down and drank some miller light in bottles a few nights back. Back to the Busch now. If I had a lot of money though, I may drink the miller or coors light more. I have never been into dark beer and I haven't drank hard liquor in sometime. Years I think.

Back to topic, thanks Bill. Good read.

wilheim · Jun 25, 2005

Sportsbooks are being held to higher standard these days. I have noticed players becoming more selective and even demanding when sending post up funds Offshore. Today we hear posters complain about what 10 years ago would be almost laughable behaviour by a book. Example not paying odd cents in payouts.

Bottom line Offshore books continue to improve in almost every area, especially customer service. Players have a right to nothing less than prompt, courteous and professional customer service. On the other hand books do have the right to cut limits when they find it necessary. Why - mainly because if they don't then may run into financial trouble so that later most will blame their operating model if they run into slow or no pay situations. In a very important sense books like the VIP group that cut limits are insuring that they will stay in business and never have to slow pay or worse stiff any or their players.

Imagine if some of the recent sportsbook failings had incorporated such safeguards, perhaps they would still be in business with all players paid. While no one likes getting limits cut, or being booted from a book in reality it is a ncessary evil for certain operating models.

wil.

DarrylParsons · Jun 25, 2005

When the VIP topic came up I knew WildBill would chime in with his usual knee-jerk "books don't owe you lines you can beat" rhetoric, but I thought it would be in post form and not article form.

A couple of people did indeed call it a shit book but that was nowhere near the consensus opinion. The consensus is pretty much what nimue77 said above.

JohnBuzz blew this out of proportion and said stuff like "around here VIP is a shit book" etc. And now WildBill is blowing it out of proportion some more.

Another point he's missing is the SYSTEMATIC way in which they boot players for simply betting dogs and shopping JUST A BIT. An analogy to that would be if a department store monitored shoppers and banned those who bought mostly sale items. In the regulated world of legitimate business would that fly? OF COURSE NOT. Of course if WildBill were in charge it would, but that's completely irrelevant. What's relevant is what the consensus thinks and the consensus neither considers VIP shit, NOR DOES IT CONSIDER IT A+ !!!!!

JohnBuzz · Jun 25, 2005

A consensus of what, 6 posters? Hmm.

Well, no one argues that VIP is the best or certainly one of the best recreational books. They are 1 of only 3 books that all their senior management have advanced degrees. They have had the best customer service since they started back in 1997. VIP's management is smart and there is no lavish anything there. Even Alistair, who has to be worth zillions, drives a 13 year old jeep and still has his luch money from the fourth grade.(thats verifiable right there)

Darryl you seem like a nice guy but I think you will admit that you havent read the comments of 100's of VIP players over many years. We put up VIP and Pinnacle at the same time in 2000. Still to this day they run neck & neck for the best feedback.

You are like a guy who drives a truck and thinks cars have no use. VIP is going public and you can read their history in the prospectus. They have incredible customer retention, 2nd only to Pinnacle. They are indeed an A+ book.

I dont know what business you are in but if I became an instant expert and started telling you about my consensus of 6 you would probably size me up as uninformed.(at best)

Fishhead · Jun 25, 2005

JohnBuzz said:
A consensus of what, 6 posters? Hmm.

Well, no one argues that VIP is the best or certainly one of the best recreational books. They are 1 of only 3 books that all their senior management have advanced degrees. They have had the best customer service since they started back in 1997. VIP's management is smart and there is no lavish anything there. Even Alistair, who has to be worth zillions, drives a 13 year old jeep and still has his luch money from the fourth grade.(thats verifiable right there)

Darryl you seem like a nice guy but I think you will admit that you havent read the comments of 100's of VIP players over many years. We put up VIP and Pinnacle at the same time in 2000. Still to this day they run neck & neck for the best feedback.

You are like a guy who drives a truck and thinks cars have no use. VIP is going public and you can read their history in the prospectus. They have incredible customer retention, 2nd only to Pinnacle. They are indeed an A+ book.

I dont know what business you are in but if I became an instant expert and started telling you about my consensus of 6 you would probably size me up as uninformed.(at best)

Why does VIP not accept LISTED PITCHERS on baseball parlays over the phone?

JohnBuzz · Jun 25, 2005

So all MLB parlays are action?
No idea. My guess is their backend management system can't amange it.
Maybe their long awaited software upgrade scheduled for August will fix this.

lander · Jun 25, 2005

Does their long awaited software upgrade reinstate punters that were booted for having a pulse (and/or a minimum of a 4th grade understanding of math)?

DarrylParsons · Jun 25, 2005

John,

I am on the other side of the fence in this business (ie. a player) and there are people out there who are interested in the perspective from this side also...in a raw, unedited, unscreened, and uncensored form which is unlike a lot of communication from the book's side.

I pointed out something very real about VIP that most players were probably unaware of. I don't need to be sitting in on board meetings to know how they manage their lines and on what basis they boot players. And for a player these are some pretty important considerations.

I think I'm doing a favor to the betting public by pointing out my observations. Surely no harm can be done since people can ignore it if they like.

As for what weight one should assign to the Rx consensus, well... there are a lot more than 6 people who have expressed their opinion on VIP in some form or another over the years here. And these are among the best and the brightest, including many industry insiders. I think it's safe to say that anybody in the business who ignores the Rx is not playing with a full deck.

nimue77 · Jun 25, 2005

Mabye their customer service is good but to put them in the same sentence as pinnacle is a crime.

JohnBuzz said:
A consensus of what, 6 posters? Hmm.

Well, no one argues that VIP is the best or certainly one of the best recreational books. They are 1 of only 3 books that all their senior management have advanced degrees. They have had the best customer service since they started back in 1997. VIP's management is smart and there is no lavish anything there. Even Alistair, who has to be worth zillions, drives a 13 year old jeep and still has his luch money from the fourth grade.(thats verifiable right there)

Darryl you seem like a nice guy but I think you will admit that you havent read the comments of 100's of VIP players over many years. We put up VIP and Pinnacle at the same time in 2000. Still to this day they run neck & neck for the best feedback.

You are like a guy who drives a truck and thinks cars have no use. VIP is going public and you can read their history in the prospectus. They have incredible customer retention, 2nd only to Pinnacle. They are indeed an A+ book.

I dont know what business you are in but if I became an instant expert and started telling you about my consensus of 6 you would probably size me up as uninformed.(at best)

JohnBuzz · Jun 25, 2005

Like Lander? He is a well documneted bonus thief who proudly admits he joined VIP 5 times and was caught stealing the bonus 5 times trying to scalp out using Pinnacle. I have no problem with scalpers, bonus theifs and the rest except VIP does not allow it. Lander is still mad because he thinks its his birth right to steal their promo money. Have you personally been thrown out? Because I would be happy to review your account.

VIP will not take their fair share of bonus whores because they are a high bonus shop. They cant afford to let the Landers of the world come in there and steal their promo money. But 1000's of players love this shop, did you read the prospectus? You should.

Every high bonus book has to limit bonus theifs, scalpers and middlers. It doesnt make them bad books, it just means they cater to a different player. There are the Pinnys and CRIS's and Oly's that welcome the Landers of the world with wide open arms(but the landers cant find bonuses to steal & off numbers so they go in search of their birthright - stealing bonuses)... and there is also the VIP's, and Bodogs ...all living happily.

-Slim- · Jun 25, 2005

What i have a problem with is people (with websites) writing "X book is closed" when they really arent. And then refusing calling them or emailing them or anything when they inform said people that they are wrong about it.

That bugs me....

Fezzik · Jun 25, 2005

I totally disagreed with the article.

The Art Manteris "We like winners, but if you are one of them, you cannot play here" model is one that immediately makes you a sub par book.

The top books go one on one with ALL bettors, they don't spend valuable admin time and money barring the winners.

Fishhead · Jun 25, 2005

Fezzik said:
The Art Manteris "We like winners, but if you are one of them, you cannot play here" model is one that immediately makes you a sub par book.

The top books go one on one with ALL bettors, they don't spend valuable admin time and money barring the winners.

For the most part, I would certainly agree.

Doesn't mean they are a BAD book, just sub-par.

-FH-