Fezzik

Illini · Sep 26, 2005

Was thinking about this, and don't know the right answer. Just wanted to get your thoughts.

If you are the coach, and you gain 10 yards on first down for another first down, but the opponent was offsides, do you take the penalty? Is the 5 extra yards more important, or is 1st and 5 the better play? I'm sure it depends on field position, but as a general rule.

WildBill · Sep 26, 2005

Always take the field position. The tough decisions are if the team gets say 8 yards so its 2nd and 2 or 1st and 10 with only 3 yards difference.

Illini · Sep 26, 2005

WildBill said:
Always take the field position. The tough decisions are if the team gets say 8 yards so its 2nd and 2 or 1st and 10 with only 3 yards difference.

I'm on the fence, and don't know if I agree or disagree. I think 1st and 5 sounds pretty good compared with 2nd and 2. 1st and 5 sounds a lot better than 1st and 10 also. Hmmm......

bulldog77 · Sep 26, 2005

In the words of General George Patton, "I never pay for the same ground twice." Take the field position.

Journeyman · Sep 26, 2005

I don't think that is even debatable, you got to take 10 yards and another first down IMO.

Now if you gained say 8 on first down and its either 2nd and two, or first and 5 , you take the down over.

Hitman26 · Sep 26, 2005

Good question Illini.

Illini · Sep 26, 2005

Journeyman said:
I don't think that is even debatable, you got to take 10 yards and another first down IMO.

Now if you gained say 8 on first down and its either 2nd and two, or first and 5 , you take the down over.

The only reason why I'm not sure if I agree or disagree is because the name of the game in moving the ball downfield is getting first downs. If it's 1st and 5, it's going to be a lot easier to get another first down than if it's 1st and 10. And if you do get that first down, you will eventually be ahead of where you would be if you decline the penalty. And then it will be 1st and 10 again. I am leaning towards accepting the penalty, although I'm sure I'm in the minority.

lostitall · Sep 26, 2005

The back or reciever who got the 10 yards LOVES your idea!

Illini · Sep 26, 2005

lostitall said:
The back or reciever who got the 10 yards LOVES your idea!

Good point, but fuck him. It's all about the team.

Cubsmac · Sep 26, 2005

Illini said:
The only reason why I'm not sure if I agree or disagree is because the name of the game in moving the ball downfield is getting first downs. If it's 1st and 5, it's going to be a lot easier to get another first down than if it's 1st and 10. And if you do get that first down, you will eventually be ahead of where you would be if you decline the penalty. And then it will be 1st and 10 again. I am leaning towards accepting the penalty, although I'm sure I'm in the minority.

While it is true that you need to get first downs, on your example, Lets say you grind out the 5 yards needed in 3 downs. Where does that get you? The exact same place you wouldve been if you declined the penalty in the first place and taken your 10 yard run. 1st and 10 at the exact yard marker. That is why you go ahead and take the run and decline the penalty.

lostitall · Sep 26, 2005

Illini said:
Good point, but fuck him. It's all about the team.

In a perfect world, in 2005 NFL, hardly. Plus it's a bad move.

Illini · Sep 26, 2005

Cubsmac said:
While it is true that you need to get first downs, on your example, Lets say you grind out the 5 yards needed in 3 downs. Where does that get you? The exact same place you wouldve been if you declined the penalty in the first place and taken your 10 yard run. 1st and 10 at the exact yard marker. That is why you go ahead and take the run and decline the penalty.

Maybe I've lost my mind. It sounds like I have when I read your post. I guess I just like the idea of 1st of 5, because it gives you some freedoms to maybe take a shot downfield or run a reverse for a big play.....with less risk. Is 5 yards now that important, when 1st and 5 could change your play calling? Hard to say. You are probably right, but I'm not convinced 100%.

wantitall4moi · Sep 26, 2005

Between the 35's it is probably a coin flip. If you are on their 35 and get to the 25 with the original play you take the play. That way if you gain nothing more you have a 42 yard FG. If you are on YOUR 35 and get to your 45, you might as well take the 5 yards and go to your 40, and have a first and 5.

Inside those you take the yardage. The only excpetion might be if you were on their 20 and got ten yards to exactly the 10, then you need a TD for a first down. So you might take the 5 to their 15, that way you could get a first down without scoring a TD. So it gives you 3 or 8 plays (depending on situation) to score a TD, rather than only 4.

Inside your twenty I think you take the yardage regardless.

But it all depends on the situation and the way the game is being played. if it is a tieless score with 6 punts per side you take it no mater what I would think.

That is why you can't make broad statements in terms of what you should do in this sitatuion.

Illini · Sep 26, 2005

wantitall4moi said:
Between the 35's it is probably a coin flip. If you are on their 35 and get to the 25 with the original play you take the play. That way if you gain nothing more you have a 42 yard FG. If you are on YOUR 35 and get to your 45, you might as well take the 5 yards and go to your 40, and have a first and 5.

Inside those you take the yardage. The only excpetion might be if you were on their 20 and got ten yards to exactly the 10, then you need a TD for a first down. So you might take the 5 to their 15, that way you could get a first down without scoring a TD. So it gives you 3 or 8 plays (depending on situation) to score a TD, rather than only 4.

Inside your twenty I think you take the yardage regardless.

But it all depends on the situation and the way the game is being played. if it is a tieless score with 6 punts per side you take it no mater what I would think.

That is why you can't make broad statements in terms of what you should do in this sitatuion.

Makes sense. I guess I agree that you can't generalize it.

Hitman26 · Sep 26, 2005

I can think of one situation where you would rather have the 1st and 5. Near the end of the game if the team that is winning would rather have the 1st and 5. They are just trying to run out the clock and 1st and 5 would be a lot better than first and 10 for obvious reasons.

So it is debatable in some situations.

Journeyman · Sep 26, 2005

Good point... time of game, score and field position are relevant in this question...

I was thinking generally, I would just take a fresh 1st and 10 and I believe most would, unless we have certain circumstances that would dictate otherwise.

Journeyman · Sep 26, 2005

BTW- this happened in the Penn State game, very similar...Penn State gained like 9 yards on 1st down...instead of taking the play they took the 5 yards and had 1st and 5....next play they gained nothing and had 2nd and 5.

royalfan · Sep 26, 2005

Cubsmac said:
While it is true that you need to get first downs, on your example, Lets say you grind out the 5 yards needed in 3 downs. Where does that get you? The exact same place you wouldve been if you declined the penalty in the first place and taken your 10 yard run. 1st and 10 at the exact yard marker. That is why you go ahead and take the run and decline the penalty.

This is certainly the best logic behind a general rule of them and will hold up in all most all situations. One situation where taking the first and 5 would be late in the game trying to protect a lead and you need the clock to run. Taking the first and 5 gets you a better chance of getting another first to seal the game running the ball. No brainer here to give up the 5 yards in field position but Cubsmac nailed it as far a a general rule of thumb. No way one should take the 1st and 5 as if your goal as Illini put it is to get the first down you will be about the same place anyway and if you don't get it you are punting with worse field position than you should be.

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