Would you prefer a lineup of nine Adam Dunn's or nine David Ecktsteins?

royalfan · Sep 29, 2005

One guy plays fundamental ball and the other certainly doesn't. Which do you prefer, Eckstein or Dunn if you had nine of them to make up a batting order? Anxious to see the responses.

cincy_ · Sep 29, 2005

royalfan said:
One guy plays fundamental ball and the other certainly doesn't. Which do you prefer, Eckstein or Dunn if you had nine of them to make up a batting order? Anxious to see the responses.

Dunn scores 100+ runs a year and has 100 RBI's per year. Eckstien will get you 40 RBI and 90 RBI.

Baseball games are decided by who has more RUNS and not by who has more HITS.

That is the bottom line.

viking611 · Sep 29, 2005

Ecksteins for sure!!

royalfan · Sep 29, 2005

I agree, I would strongly lean Dunn but your reasoning is not very correct. Unless you put Eckstein in the middle of the Red order and Dunn at the top of the Cardinal order you don't know how many runs or RBI's each would have so that is not a good comparison. My reasoning is much more sophistaced and accurate.

Kojak · Sep 29, 2005

I have coached baseball for many years and even if Eckstein did not play for the Cards it would be 9 Ecksteins. I would take 9 guys who have less talent but give their all 100% of the time over a guy with all the talent who does not play hard any day of the week.

royalfan · Sep 29, 2005

viking611 said:
Ecksteins for sure!!

Shocker!!!, Lol.

viking611 · Sep 29, 2005

runners in scoring position

<TABLE class=tablehead style="CLEAR: both" cellSpacing=1 cellPadding=3><TBODY><TR class=evenrow align=right><TD align=left>4</TD><TD align=left>David Eckstein</TD><TD align=left>StL</TD><TD width=27>122</TD><TD width=27>76</TD><TD width=27>44</TD><TD width=27>5</TD><TD width=27>4</TD><TD width=27>4</TD><TD width=27>52</TD><TD width=27>1</TD><TD width=27>1</TD><TD width=27>12</TD><TD class=sortcell width=27>.361</TD><TD width=27>.410</TD><TD width=27>.566</TD><TD width=27>.976

</TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE>

<TABLE class=tablehead style="CLEAR: both" cellSpacing=1 cellPadding=3><TBODY><TR class=evenrow align=right><TD align=left>120</TD><TD align=left>Adam Dunn</TD><TD align=left>Cin</TD><TD width=27>125</TD><TD width=27>71</TD><TD width=27>32</TD><TD width=27>9</TD><TD width=27>0</TD><TD width=27>11</TD><TD width=27>61</TD><TD width=27>1</TD><TD width=27>1</TD><TD width=27>50</TD><TD class=sortcell width=27>.256</TD><TD width=27>.475</TD><TD width=27>.592</TD><TD width=27>1.067</TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE>

viking611 · Sep 29, 2005

runners in scoring position with 2 outs! Leads the league!!

<TABLE class=tablehead style="CLEAR: both" cellSpacing=1 cellPadding=3><TBODY><TR class=oddrow align=right><TD align=left>1</TD><TD align=left>David Eckstein</TD><TD align=left>StL</TD><TD width=27>70</TD><TD width=27>28</TD><TD width=27>29</TD><TD width=27>2</TD><TD width=27>4</TD><TD width=27>3</TD><TD width=27>33</TD><TD width=27>1</TD><TD width=27>0</TD><TD width=27>5</TD><TD class=sortcell width=27>.414</TD><TD width=27>.461</TD><TD width=27>.686</TD><TD width=27>1.146</TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE>

<TABLE class=tablehead style="CLEAR: both" cellSpacing=1 cellPadding=3><TBODY><TR class=evenrow align=right><TD align=left>62</TD><TD align=left>Adam Dunn</TD><TD align=left>Cin</TD><TD width=27>48</TD><TD width=27>29</TD><TD width=27>12</TD><TD width=27>4</TD><TD width=27>0</TD><TD width=27>3</TD><TD width=27>22</TD><TD width=27>1</TD><TD width=27>1</TD><TD width=27>29</TD><TD class=sortcell width=27>.250</TD><TD width=27>.538</TD><TD width=27>.521</TD><TD width=27>1.059</TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE>

winkyduck · Sep 29, 2005

eckstein will give me 100% hustle 100% of the time. he will put the ball into play A HELL OF A LOT MORE then Dunn. he will field the ball better then dunn, too. gimme 9 eckstein's over 9 dunn's ANY DAY

dmmd98 · Sep 29, 2005

As much as i'd like to say Eckstein the clear answer is Adam Dunn. A previous post said that Dunn gets all those rbi's by having guys like Eckstein getting on base which is true in some respects since that is Eckstein's job. Looking at the stats Eckstein is batting .292 compared to Dunn's .253 however Dunn OBP is .394 compared to Eckstein's .363 so a lineup full of Adam Dunn's would be on based more often for the clear up Adam Dunn to drive them home. What Dunn lacks in striking out you get back in power plus Eckstien only has 10 SB which isn't that much more than Dunn's 4 so that can't be used in Eckstein favour either.

royalfan · Sep 29, 2005

winkyduck said:
eckstein will give me 100% hustle 100% of the time. he will put the ball into play A HELL OF A LOT MORE then Dunn. he will field the ball better then dunn, too. gimme 9 eckstein's over 9 dunn's ANY DAY

Not addressing defense for purposes of this debate. just offense.

royalfan · Sep 29, 2005

dmmd98 said:
As much as i'd like to say Eckstein the clear answer is Adam Dunn. A previous post said that Dunn gets all those rbi's by having guys like Eckstein getting on base which is true in some respects since that is Eckstein's job. Looking at the stats Eckstein is batting .292 compared to Dunn's .253 however Dunn OBP is .394 compared to Eckstein's .363 so a lineup full of Adam Dunn's would be on based more often for the clear up Adam Dunn to drive them home. What Dunn lacks in striking out you get back in power plus Eckstien only has 10 SB which isn't that much more than Dunn's 4 so that can't be used in Eckstein favour either.

Now we are talking. This is an intelligent man.

royalfan · Sep 29, 2005

The facts of the matter are these. Dunn would score WAY more than Eckstein. Eckstein would be scoring a respectable 5.51 runs per game had he been in all nine spots. However, Dunn would be scoring 8.39 runs per game. Not even close, Dunn the much more valuable offensive player.

cincy_ · Sep 29, 2005

Players like Eckstein are a dime a dozen. If you had 9 Eckstein's on your team, you would need 3 hits in an inning to get a run in. GOOD LUCK!!!

Do you know the odds of getting 3 hits in one inning if each player is batting .292 like Eckstein is????? Even if we have 3 batters hitting .333 in the lineup, only one out of 3 batters would get a hit every inning and he would be picking his nose at first base when the third out was made. He might make it up to 2nd or 3rd once in a while and even score a run every game or two. So if you want Eckstein, you will have to win games 1-0 or 2-1.

You might talk about stolen bases but they both have almost the same number of stolen bases.

PS: I have nothing more to add to the argument - if anyone wants to learn more, there are books and papers by James and Beane out there that explains these things very well.

viking611 · Sep 29, 2005

dmmd98 said:
As much as i'd like to say Eckstein the clear answer is Adam Dunn. A previous post said that Dunn gets all those rbi's by having guys like Eckstein getting on base which is true in some respects since that is Eckstein's job. Looking at the stats Eckstein is batting .292 compared to Dunn's .253 however Dunn OBP is .394 compared to Eckstein's .363 so a lineup full of Adam Dunn's would be on based more often for the clear up Adam Dunn to drive them home. What Dunn lacks in striking out you get back in power plus Eckstien only has 10 SB which isn't that much more than Dunn's 4 so that can't be used in Eckstein favour either.

stats above is all you should need to see who produces when it counts! You take your solo HRs 40 times, I'll take hits with runners in scoring position. Dunn can't even hit a sac fly for cryin out loud!! Plus as winky points out, you get someone giving 100%, 100% of the time!! 9 Ecksteins would never get shutout, 9 Dunns would struggle day in day out....and then might put a 10 spot up once a week when they have a good day.

dmmd98 · Sep 29, 2005

If a guy is getting on base 40% of the time how he is going to hit solo home runs?? He may hit solo shots in Cincinnati but we aren't talking about that.

ClipJoint · Sep 29, 2005

How many times can you hit and run with Dunn at the plate?

How many close games can you win by moving the runner over with a sacrifice bunt or getting a 2 out hit with a runner in scoring position?

There are a lot of little things in baseball that win games that don't show up in the stats. None of them can be accomplished by striking out.

Stats are very deceiving. Good hitters give themselves up in certain situations like advancing a runner from 2nd to 3rd by hitting the ball on the ground to the right side...how often do you thin Adam Dunn does the little things?

I don't think you would be very productive with a lineup filled with either of these guys...but it would be a toss up for me as far as which I would prefer.

viking611 · Sep 29, 2005

I'll take guy with .361 avg with runners in scoring position...you take the .252!

dmmd98 · Sep 29, 2005

True Eckstien has the hit and run thing covered but someone on Dunn's side could say how many times is Eckstein going to hit a 3 run shot to blow the game open so that point would be a wash compared to Dunn's power.

royalfan · Sep 29, 2005

Simply comes down to runs generated and Dunn would generate 3 more runs a game than Eckstein. By the way, Bonds would have scored 23.47 runs a game last year if there were nine of him in the lineup.