What will the race tracks do?

valueman · Nov 8, 2005

I'm just wondering what the racetracks and the likes of youbet will do to combat the rebate shops, exchange betting and now even new 5% vig pool betting competition.

Reports of the NYRA finacial predicament must be common place but it only seems like they are getting what they deserved for sticking to such a high margin product in the first place.

I for one have no issues in sending my action elsewhere.

jamesbong · Nov 8, 2005

You can expect to see rebates offered by Youbet sometime early next year.

You can't really blame the tracks for the high takeout. My understanding is that the percentages are legislated. But I definitely agree that many of the current rates are not a optimal level, especially exotics at a 25%+ rate.

I think one of the best examples of tracks biting the hand that feeds them is the "dime breakage" that shaves a $2.58 calculated payoff to $2.40 instead $2.50. Most tracks do this and it is thievary.

valueman · Nov 8, 2005

Dime breakage is a huge scam which in addition the high margins makes it impossible for serious bettor to bet with them. I believe I have optimised my possible profits with the following strategy. I Use:

1 - Tradehorseracing.com for my win bets at the tracks they cover. 5% take out is a lot bettor mathematically than rebates offered. Unfortunately they have only 3 major tracks a day at the moment with no Place,show and exotics yet.

2 - Pinnaclesports.com for place, show and exactas and win bets at other tracks that I play. This will disappear if/when tradehorseracing expands it's content.

3 - Betfair.com for horses i want to oppose. This can be great at times but with the large variation in pool odds late on sometimes I offer to high odds unknowingly but a great option all the same.

If anyone has a better stategy for a person betting WPS & exactas only let me know.

VaultedTreehouse · Nov 8, 2005

I won't bet horse races unless I get rebates. Love racing, but I'm not stupid. It s a tough game to beat.

valueman · Nov 8, 2005

VT - I'm the same as you and rebates help but this 5% take out at tradehorseracing is even better.

Iceman · Nov 8, 2005

do the books have an agreement w/ the tracks to drop the money in their pools. I guess my question is why do they pay track odds? Do they combine pools with track or do they just pay them on own based on track odds?

oldmanTED · Nov 8, 2005

A number of the rebate shops and even some of the non rebate shops pass the money into the mutual pool, so the tracks do benefit from those shops. The rebates are good for most players and the tracks, but if you are a large player, the last thing you want to do, particularly at a small track is place your wager at a rebate shop knowing it will go into the pool and significantly affect the odds. Rebates are nice, but the payoff on the winner not affected by the bet is where the money is.

jimmyk+ · Nov 8, 2005

A number of the rebate shops and even some of the non rebate shops pass the money into the mutual pool, so the tracks do benefit from those shops. The rebates are good for most players and the tracks, but if you are a large player, the last thing you want to do, particularly at a small track is place your wager at a rebate shop knowing it will go into the pool and significantly affect the odds. Rebates are nice, but the payoff on the winner not affected by the bet is where the money is.

......As usual , OMT is spot on , which makes PINNY the best option AT THE MOMENT..........have always thought there was a niche market out there to cater to the 25-50 dollar bettor by offering , say 8.5% , with a good menu of tracks to play .......PINNY is , and will always be a horse out for me (even w/ the recent downtick at the NYRA tracks) , as they offer me a competitive rebate and pay full track odds on a good variety of wagers.............Am not familiar w/ Tradehorseracing.com , but will chk it out ...........tx for the info V-man !!

Iceman · Nov 8, 2005

oldmanTED said:
A number of the rebate shops and even some of the non rebate shops pass the money into the mutual pool, so the tracks do benefit from those shops. The rebates are good for most players and the tracks, but if you are a large player, the last thing you want to do, particularly at a small track is place your wager at a rebate shop knowing it will go into the pool and significantly affect the odds. Rebates are nice, but the payoff on the winner not affected by the bet is where the money is.

so what does a place like pinnacle do with horses? Do they book bets themselves, would'nt this greatly effect their bottom line if they have alot more action than the track odds are paying or do they have an agreement with track to dump and somewhat share in the winning and losing of bets. Just seems odd that they would be involved with the track being that these books are based in other countries and are gambling sites.

trytrytry · Nov 8, 2005

valueman said:
Dime breakage is a huge scam which in addition the high margins makes it impossible for serious bettor to bet with them. I believe I have optimised my possible profits with the following strategy. I Use:

1 - Tradehorseracing.com for my win bets at the tracks they cover. 5% take out is a lot bettor mathematically than rebates offered. Unfortunately they have only 3 major tracks a day at the moment with no Place,show and exotics yet.

2 - Pinnaclesports.com for place, show and exactas and win bets at other tracks that I play. This will disappear if/when tradehorseracing expands it's content.

3 - Betfair.com for horses i want to oppose. This can be great at times but with the large variation in pool odds late on sometimes I offer to high odds unknowingly but a great option all the same.

If anyone has a better stategy for a person betting WPS & exactas only let me know.

value can you comment more on how it is going to tradehorseracing?

how is the software? how is the volume? is every price to win better than track prices? any last second huge swings that change what you were expecting to get?

also how does a US guy get a betfair account???

oldmanTED · Nov 8, 2005

ice man said:
so what does a place like pinnacle do with horses? Do they book bets themselves, would'nt this greatly effect their bottom line if they have alot more action than the track odds are paying or do they have an agreement with track to dump and somewhat share in the winning and losing of bets. Just seems odd that they would be involved with the track being that these books are based in other countries and are gambling sites.

Pinnacle passes a good deal of their horse racing action into the parimutual pools, particularly large wagers at mid to small sized tracks. If you are watching parimutual pools at a site like youbet and make a large wager at a mid to small track, you can readily see within the next pool update that the wager has hit the board in the win, place, and show mutuals. Exotics are more difficult to see. Don't believe it is an agreement with the tracks, just passing the play through so they don't get hurt. But the player loses the odds by going through this type of shop. The rebate is peanuts for this type of player. The odds are where you want the payout to be.

trytrytry · Nov 8, 2005

valueman said:
VT - I'm the same as you and rebates help but this 5% take out at tradehorseracing is even better.

when I have done the match a couple times its more like approx a 7-8% better win price on the top few choices, 9-12% better on the longshots....its not a 5% takeout I dont think, at least not an average 5%.

Iceman · Nov 8, 2005

oldmanTED said:
Pinnacle passes a good deal of their horse racing action into the parimutual pools, particularly large wagers at mid to small sized tracks. If you are watching parimutual pools at a site like youbet and make a large wager at a mid to small track, you can readily see within the next pool update that the wager has hit the board in the win, place, and show mutuals. Exotics are more difficult to see. Don't believe it is an agreement with the tracks, just passing the play through so they don't get hurt. But the player loses the odds by going through this type of shop. The rebate is peanuts for this type of player. The odds are where you want the payout to be.

Thanks I think I understand. So basically when you say passes their action to the pools you basically mean they just bet it with your money. Never really knew the answer to this because I have only made a few track wagers on-line. But cashed (wwts) for over $400 on BC Classic and knew I got track odds. Thanks.

jamesbong · Nov 8, 2005

oldmanTED said:
Pinnacle passes a good deal of their horse racing action into the parimutual pools, particularly large wagers at mid to small sized tracks. If you are watching parimutual pools at a site like youbet and make a large wager at a mid to small track, you can readily see within the next pool update that the wager has hit the board in the win, place, and show mutuals. Exotics are more difficult to see. Don't believe it is an agreement with the tracks, just passing the play through so they don't get hurt. But the player loses the odds by going through this type of shop. The rebate is peanuts for this type of player. The odds are where you want the payout to be.

Does that happen for all players or just special ones? And is it on every wager or do they decide after you make the bet whether or not to dump it? And does Pinnacle get a rebate from whatever intermediary they use to dump money in the pools? Thx.

jimmyk+ · Nov 8, 2005

PINNY will take a position on some of their horse action by laying off %'s , and I would be very surprised if they were not getting some kind of rebate themselves..........

oldmanTED · Nov 8, 2005

jamesbong said:
Does that happen for all players or just special ones? And is it on every wager or do they decide after you make the bet whether or not to dump it? And does Pinnacle get a rebate from whatever intermediary they use to dump money in the pools? Thx.

Don't believe it happens for all players but definitely for large players. Not certain about Pinnacle getting a rebate from the tracks but, as JimmyK stated, would certainly not surprise me either.

valueman · Nov 8, 2005

trytrytry - I've been betting with tradehorseracing for a couple of weeks on their pool betting and this is how it works:

They copy the pool for $20K - say there was $40K in the actual track pool they would have half the number of units on each particular horse. Then they add their customers real bets so to make a total pool. Then they take out 5% and divide between winning units without any dime breakage.

I've seen one horse pay below track odds in 2 weeks and on average the payouts are 12%+ better than track odds, more for high margin tracks like turf paradise, philadelphia etc. They have liquidity providers who guarantee the pool as the pool bets don't cover each other and there is at least a $100k per race available to bet.

I've been with Pinny a while and they are great but this really is significantly better odds if you do the sums. 6%+ better than Pinny by my calculations.

jimmyk+ · Nov 8, 2005

how many tracks do they book ?

trytrytry · Nov 8, 2005

valueman said:
trytrytry - I've been betting with tradehorseracing for a couple of weeks on their pool betting and this is how it works:

They copy the pool for $20K - say there was $40K in the actual track pool they would have half the number of units on each particular horse. Then they add their customers real bets so to make a total pool. Then they take out 5% and divide between winning units without any dime breakage.

I've seen one horse pay below track odds in 2 weeks and on average the payouts are 12%+ better than track odds, more for high margin tracks like turf paradise, philadelphia etc. They have liquidity providers who guarantee the pool as the pool bets don't cover each other and there is at least a $100k per race available to bet.

I've been with Pinny a while and they are great but this really is significantly better odds if you do the sums. 6%+ better than Pinny by my calculations.

hmmm interesting. and how often does the price you see offered on the screen near post change dramatically due to some big bets from customers at that site?

kidslick · Nov 8, 2005

here is a link if you want to know what the takeout rate is at each track

...fwiw

http://www.brisnet.com/cgi-bin/static.cgi?page=trktkout&header=off