Bankruptcy and Gambling

gak555 · Apr 12, 2006

One of my best friends just entered the Gambler's Anonymous program and is planning on filing bankruptcy. He actually was a fairly decent handicapper, but chased, doubled up, did Martindale progressions, etc. Basically, he squandered all of his savings.

I actually feel guilty because I introduced him to online gambling about three years ago. He just took it too far.

I don't know much about declaring bankruptcy as a result of gambling and I recommended that he see a good BK lawyer. Does anyone have helpful information I can pass on to him ?

Thanks

Christian · Apr 12, 2006

if what you say is true, and he's actually a "decent handicapper"...

then gambling isn't his problem...

poor money managment is his problem...

why go to GA? why not learn to have some discipline and manage your money.

most people i've met who chase losses, double-up/martingale shit, etc. etc. are just very undisciplined people in general. stopping gambling won't teach you discipline. they'll just find a new way to ruin their lives.

if i had a friend who blew his life savings doing shit like that, i would just teach him how to use proper money management. especially, if he actually knew how to handicap....

handicapping is the TOUGH part of this business. money management is the EASY part.

sorry to be so flippant about this, but that's just how i see things. good luck to him though!

ClipJoint · Apr 12, 2006

Every person is different. There are many people that are good handicappers but struggle with poor money management. I don't think it is as cookie cutter as Chrisitian makes it out to be. Money management and discipline is very difficult for many.

Insiders · Apr 12, 2006

Clip Joint said:
Every person is different. There are many people that are good handicappers but struggle with poor money management. I don't think it is as cookie cutter as Chrisitian makes it out to be. Money management and discipline is very difficult for many.

Well said. Chaseing and Pressing 2 different animals !

Christian · Apr 12, 2006

the guy who posted this thread didn't mention any other problems EXCEPT poor money managment.

he didn't say that his buddy bet blindly or that he just picked teams by flipping a coin or bet on whichever team had his favorite quarterback and THEN failed to use proper money management and lost everything...

he said his buddy was a "fairly decent handicapper"...

which i would assume means that he potentially won more than he lost...

if he didn't win more games than he lost then he wouldn't have used the description "fairly decent" because unless you win more games than you lose (i.e. above the potential break-even point) than you are NOT decent, fairly decent, or any other potentially positive description...

you're just a REGULAR bettor, and regular bettors are long-term losers...

anyway, if the guy's buddy is NOT a decent handcipper AND can't manage his money, then absolutely, STOP gambling. get help.

BUT...if what his buddy said is true and he CAN potentially win more than he loses but is being held back by poor money management...

that's the easist thing to fix! i'd teach him how to use proper money management. if he can't or won't learn the important principals of money management, then tell him to quit...

there's a lot of bettors out there who have never really learned how to manage their money. maybe he just never learned and he thought that doing all the shit that he was doing (chasing, double-up, etc.) was just how everybody does it...

make it simple for the guy, tell him to bet 1% of his starting bankroll on each and every play he makes for the next year, with no exceptions.. it doesn't get much more conservative than that. a robot could do it.

after a year, if he's a decent handicapper, he'll be doing fine.

ClipJoint · Apr 12, 2006

That is like telling an alcoholic to just drink moderately...if it were that simple, it wouldn't be considered "addicting".

You can't just teach someone to be more disciplined. It is not that simple. Some people just have that "itch" and "compulsive behavior".

charliepeete · Apr 12, 2006

HOW IS DARRIN MCCARTY... DOING??????????????????????????????

uppy:

Christian · Apr 12, 2006

Clip Joint said:
You can't just teach someone to be more disciplined. It is not that simple. Some people just have that "itch" and "compulsive behavior".

you're right...

BUT....

not everyone who goes "bust" should give up gambling...

when i started gambling at the age of 18, i had no clue about money managment...

no one does when they start out...

i used to chase losses, double up, etc. just like everybody did when they start out. that's a natural reaction. i just assumed that everyone did that. i honestly had no clue what i was doing! and i lost everything. luckily, i was only 18 and hardly had any money...

but i was determined to learn how this business works and i eventually learned the right way to do things...

my problem wasn't the "itch" or "compulsive behavior" it was that i had NO FUCKING IDEA what i was doing...

and that was a recipe for disaster in gambling...or in ANY ACTIVITY that involved money.

all i was saying is that if this guy knows how to handicap then it would be a shame if he gave up on it just because he didn't know how to manage his money.

granted, if he is one of those compulsive types, that's something else...

but obviously, there's not enough information being given by the original poster of this thread so we're all just guessing.

but i've met plenty of bettors over the years who have lost a ton, and plenty of them lost SOLELY due to the fact that they had NO CLUE as to how to manage their money and bet conservatively. lack of discipline or compulsvie behavoir wasn't their problem.

oldmanTED · Apr 12, 2006

A major sign of trouble is chasing and pressing trying to get back losses. It is not just a money management issue but a personal characteristic that is not that easy to change. When you begin to bet more then you can afford to lose and are considering declaring backrupcy, it means you have no doubt exhausted all your money, most likely borrowed more and have no way out of the debt. Picking games and money management will do no good to this type of individual. They have reached a point where they have to acknowledge they have a problem and seek out help from GA. Sugar coating this situation by saying just use better money management is both naive and irresponsible. This individual needs help and fast.

Christian · Apr 12, 2006

do you know how many otherwise very smart bettors still believe in the old "bet more when you're winning and cut back when you're losing" nonsense...

what do you think that is? it's...

1) it is a lack of discipline (fear of a losing streak, which they SHOULD know is inevitable in this business and is nothing to be afraid of)

and

2) it's an obvious example of ignorance (there's no way to know when you're in a winning or losing streak only when you just HAD a winning or losing streak..each day is a new day)

should those people quit gambling too? what if they day comes that they end up bankrupting themselves. they showed an obvious lack of discipline in their betting history.

i bring up my personal example because most people would have told me the same thing..."oh, you have a gambling problem. you need help."

in reality, i just needed to learn how this business worked. i needed to educate myself and learn what i was doing wrong. the gambling wasn't the problem.

Dawoofdaddy · Apr 12, 2006

Christian, a very solid post.

Most of the "streak" bettors, when asked to define a "streak" fail to give an adequate answer.

However, I do believe money management is among the top aspects of any type of speculation/handicapping.

Christian · Apr 12, 2006

DAWOOFDADDY said:
Christian, a very solid post.

Most of the "streak" bettors, when asked to define a "streak" fail to give an adequate answer.

don't ge me wrong, i'm the first to admit that there are PLENTY of gamblers who have no business at all betting...

and far all i know, this guy may be one of them. none of us know for sure. only his buddy knows what's best for him.

but i know for a fact that there are also plenty of very smart bettors who lack even the basic understanding of sound money management. and there are 2 types of those guys...

1) the guys who lose long-term even though they potentially pick more winners than losers

and

2) the guys who win far less than they could/should because they don't utilize proper money management

i was just trying to offer a different point of view on this subject, especially considering i remember being a punk 18 year old kid not knowing what the hell i was doing and losing my lunch!

oldmanTED · Apr 12, 2006

Christian:

You're missing the point. This individual has already lost all his money, including his savings, and I suspect is in debt using credit cards as well. A person in this situation doesn't need a lesson on money management so he can continue to gamble, he needs help. Real help. While many can gamble recreationally, others do not have the control to stop. For them, it has become a sickness. To tell someone to continue to gamble who is in this situation is ludicrous.

I understand what you are saying about learning through hard knocks and then getting better at picking winners and money management, but there are many who are unable to achieve that of which you speak. Less then 5% can turn a long term profit in this business. If one gambles for recreation and loses what they can afford, there is no problem. But for others that lose everything and are deeply in a hole, they need assistance to get them out of the whole. That's what GA can do. Telling them to keep gambling is not the answer for this type of individual.

-Slim- · Apr 12, 2006

when someone is looking for help from Gamblers Anonymous, please dont tell him to change his money management skills, please allow the individiual to seek help.

ClipJoint · Apr 12, 2006

-Slim- said:
when someone is looking for help from Gamblers Anonymous, please dont tell him to change his money management skills, please allow the individiual to seek help.

Exactly...the guy is considering bankruptcy.

"Hey buddy, listen, you can still make money gambling. Don't throw in the towel just yet."

:lolBIG:

When you reach this type of low, it is an addiction that has taken control. It has nothing to do with picking winners.

TTinCO · Apr 12, 2006

Ted is dead on. It's WAYYYYYYY to late to be adjusting strategy-the game is over, and he has lost-badly.

Christian · Apr 12, 2006

hey, i've been there...

i've been tapped out...

it took me YEARS to be able to save up another bankroll to get back in the game. but i did what it took.

my problem wasn't gambling, it was IGNORANCE!

just because someone tells me they went bankrupt, that doesn't mean shit to me.

do you know how many businessmen go bankrupt? do they all throw in the towel? if your restaurant fails? or your bar fails? or whatever other business, do you just throw in the towel and assume you're not cut out for it...

not necessarily. it depends on your character and personal drive.

and for all i know, maybe this guy ISN'T cut out for this "business" very few are.

but when someone tells me, "my buddy is fairly decent handicapper...but he went bust because he couldn't manage his money"

i'm not going to just assume he's got impulsive problems...maybe he does, but i'm not going to jump to conclusions and i'm going to try to hear his full story (if possible)

i'm going to hear him out and see if maybe his problem is the exact same one i had years ago....IGNORANCE and lack of education/experience.

that's just how i see it. we'll just have to agree to disagree.

Bourn · Apr 12, 2006

Clip Joint said:
Exactly...the guy is considering bankruptcy.

"Hey buddy, listen, you can still make money gambling. Don't throw in the towel just yet."

:lolBIG:

That made me laugh hard. thanks

Christian · Apr 12, 2006

maybe you guys have heard of Henry Ford...

his first company (Detroit Automobile Company) went bankrupt...

obviously, he didn't know what he was doing...right? he wasn't cut out for the business, right?

he gave it another shot. he later founded a company called the Ford Motor Company (maybe you've heard of it?)

there are plenty of people who have gone bankrupt and have bounced back...myself included.

as i've said before, no one knows this guy's situation better than his friend. all of us in the thread are just speculating.

but i'm not the kind of person who jumps to conclusions and will just assume someone is a failure in something...in anything...just because they went bust...not until i know for sure they don't have what it takes to make it.

maybe this guy doesn't, maybe he IS an idiot, maybe he has the emotional restraint of a 13 year old boy going through puberty...i don't know. but neither do you!

BAGIANT · Apr 12, 2006

I went out and surveyed people in GA that lost in sports betting. And some of their stories are really sad.

But basically I asked them since they were losing with their picks, only sports, not horses, WHY didn't they start betting the opposite of what they really felt!

The answer, down to a man was, they were afraid that they'd go on a winning streak! If these players had the balls to bet the other way, they could be buying Escalades and have mansions by now! So sad!