Offshore Bettors what will you do now? The line has been crossed!

I am going to turn around the BetMill/BoS situation and look at it from a managment 101 point of view or what I call a view from the bottom and defend the watchdogs. I am doing so because it is not about BoS at all.
Not one bit. Its about all of them and what is accepted by you the players
from them.

First and foremost a watchdog can do all it can for its supporters and try to presaude the books to do the right thing but it can not tell the book how to run there buisness or what decisions to make.

In addition acceptance of advertising money does not mean that the company who paid the money has to do what the people who accepted it
tell them to do. If there were one watchdog that would be one thing but theres not. They can band together and put pressure on a place by not accepting the advertising but rarely anywhere in the world with any product does that ever really happen. In buisness its always a desprate game of hold on and get what you can while you can. Otherwise you go out of buisness. It does not matter what the product is.



Many point there fingers at the watchdogs and say its your fault for accepting the advertising. Is that right.



So let me get this straight. They are supposed to watch over you, monitor your movements, warn you and PROTECT YOU FROM YOURSELVES WHEN DEALING WITH OFFSHORE BOOKS. They are supposed to know all the rules
for all the books they accept money from and keep you up to date at all times.


You the ones who go out and chase the anthesises of the whole problem and thats bonuses. 20-100 percent. You who hunt out every book there is and move money like pros when the right bait is dangled and you send money with out thought. In furthrance you bring books in these places who are not supported and demand justice as well. JUSTICE FROM WHAT.
YOUR GREED THATS WHAT.



You are asking the watchdogs to control your greed while you chase after middle and scalps playing JR WISE GUYS till the day you die. They are supposed to do all that for a handfull of advertising dollars. GET REAL.



The question is this offshore bettors. If the watchdogs were to band together and not accept advertising from bad books; WOULD YOU THE OFFSHORE BETTING COMMUNITY BAND TOGETHER AND NOT SUPPORT THESE BOOKS IN ANY SINGLE WAY NO MATTER HOW BIG THE BONUS OR JUICY THE NUMBER. YES OR NO.


Are you willing to make the SACRAFICE to empower them by not giving in.
Are you willing to Sacrafice your agendas for the common good of the whole and do your part to be the eyes and ears of the watchdog also and warn others everywhere like they warn you.


ARE YOU WILLING TO MEET THEM HALF WAY? Yes or No.



A community is only as strong as the people behind it and this one has been rendered helpless because it has asked its police force to do everything for them while at the same time going out and doing the very things that causes the problems that the few who actually win have to endure because they did not due there due dilligence and police themselves first. IT STARTS WITH YOU.


Its what this decision did. Render the watchdogs helpless. BetMill has said fuck you to not only the watchdogs but to you the player as well. There arrogance concerning there recreational players plus football cures all has set the tone. How much more are you going to accept from these places for a fat bonus or 2?

Sports Savant asked is this going to create a herd mentality? You are damn right it is. There is nothing to stop nobody but YOU THE OFFSHORE BETTOR. I mean nothing. As long as you the palyer chases bonuses and numbers moving money like pros to do so IT WILL NOT CHANGE.


You can not have everything your way. It is not a watchdogs responsiblity
or the sportsbooks to TELL YOU OF THE RULES. It is UP TO YOU TO ASK WHAT THE RULES ARE BEFORE SENDING YOUR MONEY. Name something else you ship money off to not sports related without asking a bunch of questions first. How does accaptance of advertising dollars by a watchdog absolve you of basic consumer common sense? Seriously.

What are you willing to do offshore bettors to empower the watchdogs to be able to truly watch over you as you play your JR WISE GUY GAMES?


WILL YOU SET YOUR AGENDAS ASIDE AND STAND BEHIND THEM AS DECISIONS THAT THE COMMUNITY MAKES FOR ITS SELF ARE ENFORCED OR WILL YOU DO WHAT YOU ALWAYS DO WHICH IS FEEL BAD FOR A PERSON AND KEEP RIGHT ON SUPPORTING THESE CROOKED PLACES?

great post, only one thing i could add, thank you sir.

"So let me get this straight. They are supposed to watch over you, monitor your movements, warn you and PROTECT YOU FROM YOURSELVES WHEN DEALING WITH OFFSHORE BOOKS. They are supposed to know all the rules
for all the books they accept money from and keep you up to date at all times."

No Sugarbear. One question: Is asking them to stop recommending posters to send money to scam sportsbooks that may steal your money asking too much?

You make a lot of excellent points. But beyond, or should i say, before even getting to BM...i just hate how the industry has gravitated to dealing double lines & assorted harassments being considered perfectly normal, moral, & a God-given right... and being sharp, no not even that often-- just getting lucky & winning on a player's part is almost considered an immoral thing: sort of like defrauding / robbing the poor vulnerable book(s).
Of course, none of that is new-- Vegas had it for eons...though not to the extremes / adversarial climate seen today. Of course, almost nobody is going to physically harm one like say, Benny Binion would break fingers for counting cards at blackjack.

This is one more nail in the traditional bookmaking coffin-- as Wild Bill opines in his latest article-- which will be totally replaced by exchanges.

If a site accepts advertising dollars from a book that turns out to be crooked, but the site had no idea that the book was crooked, I wouldn't blame the site. However, after the site learns that the book is crooked, it's time to refuse their advertising and take down the banner. In my opinion, it's unethical to direct people towards a business when you know that business is crooked.

I would be ashamed of myself if I accepted money in exchange for promoting an operation that steals money from its users. I would feel like I was a part of the scam in that situation. Frankly I'm amazed that the RX would even consider accepting advertising from sportsbooks like that.

Chuck Sims said:

"So let me get this straight. They are supposed to watch over you, monitor your movements, warn you and PROTECT YOU FROM YOURSELVES WHEN DEALING WITH OFFSHORE BOOKS. They are supposed to know all the rules
for all the books they accept money from and keep you up to date at all times."

No Sugarbear. One question: Is asking them to stop recommending posters to send money to scam sportsbooks that may steal your money asking too much?

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So by them not reccomnding these books automatically confers that all players will not send money to them is what you are saying in the first blush. Players hunt out these books like dogs. Dogs whom in turn come right into these places and demand satisfaction the minute things dont go there way. Places whom go out of there way to help said person with a book they recieve no revenue from.


Why wouldn't they accept the money. Where does it come from to pay the people who are constantly on the phone and computer fighting for you? They need more and more people to fight for you as the community has grown. If you do not support there decisions and continue to support these places WHAT WOULD YOU HAVE THEM DO?


You will not self regulate yourselves as well as control your greed. You leave them no choice.

Offshore bettors I expected a lot more answers from you than this.

Bottom line. WILL YOU SET YOUR AGENDAS ASIDE AND STAND BEHIND THEM AS DECISIONS THAT THE COMMUNITY MAKES FOR ITS SELF ARE ENFORCED OR WILL YOU DO WHAT YOU ALWAYS DO WHICH IS FEEL BAD FOR A PERSON AND KEEP RIGHT ON SUPPORTING THESE CROOKED PLACES?

YES or No. I am sure they would like to know.

Some sage advice offshore bettors. Its your responsiblity.

You are taking a risk when you send your money to an offshore sportsbook. You are taking less risk when you send money to sportsbooks that put all customer deposits into escrow accounts at banks. You are taking less risk when you send money to sportsbooks located in England or Australia, because those jurisdictions have better laws controlling bookmaking. You are taking less risk when you send money to a sportsbook that publishes quarterly income statements and balance sheets, provided the business is making a profit and has more tangible assets than liabilities.
If you send money to a sportsbook that does not put customer deposits into escrow, then your deposit is a short-term loan to that sportsbook. The book uses your deposit to pay bills and to cover withdrawals by other customers. If you withdraw money, the book will pay you out of new deposits being made by other customers. This system is fine as long as the book is making a profit; but if it is operating at a loss, the business is indistinguishable from a Ponzi scheme. When a Ponzi scheme does not attract enough new deposits to cover withdrawal requests, it implodes, leaving little in the way of assets to distribute to customers.




I found the body of this in an old post from 2003 dealing with the subject of how much does advertising influence the fourms? Its too dated to bump but the bottom line is this.


Its your responsiblity OFFSHOREBETTORS. Do not come crying to the watchdogs in the future because you did not take the right precautions and let greed rule you instead.


You very well better start demanding the offshore expierence you want and empowering these watchdogs to do something like being able to be in a position to demand an advertiser agree to at least having customer deposits on escrow at a bank. Of course you would have to stand behind them to make it work and not support the shit places for them to have that power.


With the impending POS meltdown a lot of the shit books will be closing anyway. That run on the bank had to hurt. I Wonder what there deposits are like now?

the "watchdogs" are supposed to be "insiders"

because of this, they should PRESUMABLY have a better idea of a book's chance of success/failure and the risk associated with a particular operation.

The average bettor has NO CLUE about ownership, financials, etc.

that is why it is necessary for them to rely on others to help guide the way



unfortunately, many, mant people have abused that trust

Sugarbear:

A very thought provoking thread and one which all should ponder. That being said, and with no disrespect intended, can't help but notice that your location is shown as Las Vegas. Although, limits and options are significantly less available in Sin City, can't help but wonder if your location and access might not have some influence on your position on the matter. Carry on!

oldmanTED said:

Sugarbear:

A very thought provoking thread and one which all should ponder. That being said, and with no disrespect intended, can't help but notice that your location is shown as Las Vegas. Although, limits and options are significantly less available in Sin City, can't help but wonder if your location and access might not have some influence on your position on the matter. Carry on!

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Actually Old Man Ted it is likely I will in the fall as I am a modern day Stardust fraternity member. We feel with the granddaddy of them all closing as well as considering the alumni that come from both sides of the counter we feel reporters and newspapers unreal will be coming to ask the modern day ones there stroys of the transition into corprate Vegas as well as looking for stories from the old days which a special/key member of the vegas old guard has agreed to come out and tell a few stories to the boys and girls.



I am to many a major character of the 90's LasVegas strip and eventually Robert is going to send them my way where me and my contemporaries will take over and start telling our stories.


Being the free agent I can break from the policy of neutrality concerning Vegas's position on the offshores and I HAVE A LOT TO SAY. We have said a lot in the last few months behind the scenes as it is. Some which is revealed in my threads here so many have an idea of what I will say already.



I will be taking the greater offshore community to task in a much bigger check and challenge than I have done here and at MW.

FairWarning said:

Sugarbear - you raise some great points here. Main point I think we know the answer to, about the average bettor controlling their greed. If perple don't know what the top 5-6 books are by now, then I don't know what else to do.

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Well said FairWarning! Watchdogs can only do so much when they are watching over the goose that lays the golden eggs. Everybody could be regulated and insured tomorrow if the feds and politicians weren't such assholes.

Being the free agent I can break from the policy of neutrality concerning Vegas's position on the offshores and I HAVE A LOT TO SAY. We have said a lot in the last few months behind the scenes as it is. Some which is revealed in my threads here so many have an idea of what I will say already.



I will be taking the greater offshore community to task in a much bigger check and challenge than I have done here and at MW.




You guys wont do it for yourselves so I will push you to do so. Many of the ones here who care about more than there wallets or themselves have answered the hard questions I have asked and I have more than enough ammo to between here and MW to point out the changes that need to take place. I will print it whole on MW during my vacation in July.



To the extent I am allowed to open up is how much I will. The modern day ones do have an agenda which has nothing to do with the offshores per say so I will have to tow the company line.



Bottom line both sides of the ocean in the coming times ahead need each other. There is not nearly enough talent or other support type indivuals on either side to effectivly sheppeard things in.


From a pure economic standpoint Vegas does not like what it sees out there. A lot of natural factors have built up since 2004 that are about to drop the bottom out of the current model out there. Things will get broken up left and right out there and the watchdogs will be forced to take the position I printed out in my DO NOT CRY piece even including the newbies.
They will be simply overwhelmed and wont be able to help.


This natural breakup will provide the launch we/I need to start effecting changes or at least try to. The rest will be up to all of you the true pros of this society one way or another whom are the only ones that hang around fourms this time of year.

Sugarbear said:

You are taking a risk when you send your money to an offshore sportsbook. You are taking less risk when you send money to sportsbooks that put all customer deposits into escrow accounts at banks. You are taking less risk when you send money to sportsbooks located in England or Australia, because those jurisdictions have better laws controlling bookmaking. You are taking less risk when you send money to a sportsbook that publishes quarterly income statements and balance sheets, provided the business is making a profit and has more tangible assets than liabilities.
If you send money to a sportsbook that does not put customer deposits into escrow, then your deposit is a short-term loan to that sportsbook. The book uses your deposit to pay bills and to cover withdrawals by other customers. If you withdraw money, the book will pay you out of new deposits being made by other customers. This system is fine as long as the book is making a profit; but if it is operating at a loss, the business is indistinguishable from a Ponzi scheme. When a Ponzi scheme does not attract enough new deposits to cover withdrawal requests, it implodes, leaving little in the way of assets to distribute to customers.




I found the body of this in an old post from 2003 dealing with the subject of how much does advertising influence the fourms? Its too dated to bump but the bottom line is this.


Its your responsiblity OFFSHOREBETTORS. Do not come crying to the watchdogs in the future because you did not take the right precautions and let greed rule you instead.


You very well better start demanding the offshore expierence you want and empowering these watchdogs to do something like being able to be in a position to demand an advertiser agree to at least having customer deposits on escrow at a bank. Of course you would have to stand behind them to make it work and not support the shit places for them to have that power.


With the impending POS meltdown a lot of the shit books will be closing anyway. That run on the bank had to hurt. I Wonder what there deposits are like now?

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You were warned. Dont cry now.

I will continue to play at places in business over 5 years who have paid in the past. I will diversify to avoid government interruption.

I will not play at known stiff books regardless of bonus.

-Sean

I will continue to play at places in business over 5 years who have paid in the past. I will diversify to avoid government interruption.

I will not play at known stiff books regardless of bonus.

This is not that hard.

One book went down. Anyone who reads these forums should have had less than 10% (I'd say 5%) in the book that went down. It was readily available as to who BOS owned for months.

-Sean

Sugarbear said:

You guys wont do it for yourselves so I will push you to do so. Many of the ones here who care about more than there wallets or themselves have answered the hard questions I have asked and I have more than enough ammo to between here and MW to point out the changes that need to take place.


Bottom line both sides of the ocean in the coming times ahead need each other. There is not nearly enough talent or other support type indivuals on either side to effectivly sheppeard things in.


From a pure economic standpoint Vegas does not like what it sees out there. A lot of natural factors have built up since 2004 that are about to drop the bottom out of the current model out there. Things will get broken up left and right out there and the watchdogs will be forced to take the position I printed out in my DO NOT CRY piece even including the newbies. They will be simply overwhelmed and wont be able to help.


This natural breakup will provide the launch we/I need to start effecting changes or at least try to. The rest will be up to all of you the true pros of this society one way or another whom are the only ones that hang around fourms this time of year.

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Can you hear me now?


Many of you deposited with BoS after the fact. In addition you are pros and accept the risk of what you do. Always the Victim,Ever the Victim when greed rules the day. You chased the bigger bonuses and took advantage of the fact they did not know what to do with there lines and you were winning. It was obvious they were losing a ton of money and self scalping themselves thru panic as seen thru your eyes. The collective comments showed they were struggling internally with there operations.
They just made a huge Asia purchase for a lot of cash and in total had 21 places to manage with no outward signs of trying synergize it all. In Feb by there numbers they had 21 million vs 26 million in customer deposits.


In this buisness behind the scenes folks you have to start getting ready for football right after the superbowl. All the decisions on what you will spend and with whom are made and all of it is paid for by the time it goes to the printer in in mid to late April. Its not uncommon to be at a deficit and double so in your pay now for a loser later program. It does however mean they are insolvent. Of course that assumes a run on the bank.


I will say they spent 10 million in advertising for all there properties combined. ( no real clue.) This leaves 11 to support all there operations in slow season plus continue to build shareholder value. It was obvious by your comments that they struggling to stop the bleeding there ineptness was causing them plus a inefficient buisness model drains precious capital out of a place. With 21 places its not as easy to merge things as you think. In there case they took on all this inside of 2 years mostly. When people started getting fired we knew we were right then.


They were flat killing themselves before even taking a bet each days. This is basic operations 101 stuff I am talking here. All this was easy to see thru the collective eyes of the community.



Now a 8-10 million float or even a 5-7 one is enough to make it to August in your model. It is also enough to cover what little post up exposure they have in July.


Bottom line Carruthers started stealing and slashing because in the big projections they were going to have trouble matching last years numbers which means a slow down is eveident and that means bad news. Once bad news hits share prices go down. You can add it is felt other companies are in the same bind and a combined slow down by all means MARKET DEVALUATION. Without the DOJ's help BoS was in trouble. All the signs were there. Also in May a number of excutives bought a combined 55,000 shares at avg 155 which then went to 140 for the most part.


There was huge internal downward pressure to perform and get things up to snuff. The breaking of the fragile trust they had worked to built was the outward burst of pent up steam.


Many who are not public companies are in this same position. Buyer Beware.

obviously many failed to heed your warning, another great post sir!!

teazeman said:

obviously many failed to heed your warning, another great post sir!!

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Thank you. The last part would have amounted to a full call out which is not for me to decide. I posted Reliable or rouge like 8 times with full shareholder values write ups in it plus other comments.