Here is what we know on the online gambling issues!

TomBrady#1 · Jul 30, 2006

I am not a lawyer or Legal mind of any sort.
It seems to me the the only thing for sure is that NOBODY KNOWS what is going to happen. It is all speculation at this point. Absolutely nobody knows and that includes all Legal people directly involved. How would they they know WITHOUT any rulings yet? IF and when rulings come down from the US on the BOS issue then that will tell a little more. Maybe.
I tell you what though, if the U.S. goes after another book then people will react, fear will set in and U.S. people will pull money out even faster. This is the big fear. IS there anything stopping the U.S. from walking into the major offshore books and making more arrests? Then there will be big changes at that point.
This is how I feel.......thoughts men?

vanzack · Jul 30, 2006

I agree with you about internet gambling.

I disagree with you about Tom Brady being #1. My number one will always be Peter Brady.

Dante · Jul 30, 2006

I agree...if this happens to another big book that would probably make it 100X worse then it is now

Rawpimple · Jul 30, 2006

I agree no one knows. I think this football season is safe but next season is a big question.

The good news is all the individual online gamblers in the U.S. are not the target. They are going after the books which is actually a decent plan of attack on their part. Since the books make all the money and would be the ones screwing the IRS.

However this whole attack on online gambling is LAME. This country is the land of the free yet we cannot do what we want with our money. If we want to give it away to a sportsbook, who cares? If I want to wipe my ass with money, who cares? As long as I am not doing something that is hurting others, who cares? This country has plenty of other issues to go after than online gambling.

HerzvanRentle · Jul 30, 2006

Tom Brady#1 said:
IS there anything stopping the U.S. from walking into the major offshore books and making more arrests?

If they walk in to an offshore book like you suggest I recommend a phone call to the local constabulary to have them removed pronto. :103631605

TomBrady#1 · Jul 30, 2006

Rawpimple said:
I agree no one knows. I think this football season is safe but next season is a big question.

The good news is all the individual online gamblers in the U.S. are not the target. They are going after the books which is actually a decent plan of attack on their part. Since the books make all the money and would be the ones screwing the IRS.

However this whole attack on online gambling is LAME. This country is the land of the free yet we cannot do what we want with our money. If we want to give it away to a sportsbook, who cares? If I want to wipe my ass with money, who cares? As long as I am not doing something that is hurting others, who cares? This country has plenty of other issues to go after than online gambling.

I totally agree and that is why it is LEGAL in like the rest of the world....I was dealing in what is here right now..

Wynn · Jul 30, 2006

Rawpimple said:
The good news is all the individual online gamblers in the U.S. are not the target. They are going after the books which is actually a decent plan of attack on their part. Since the books make all the money and would be the ones screwing the IRS.

This is from one of my previous threads:

http://forum.therx.com/showthread.php?t=392756

For clarification purposes:

HR4411 (sponsored by Rep. Jim Leach R-Iowa) “Internet Gambling Prohibition and Enforcement Act” bans online sites from "knowingly accepting" money from U.S.-based customers, and encourages financial institutions to deny Internet gambling transactions. It exempts horse racing and loterries.
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In other words, it targets gambling websites and financial institutions.
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It has passed the House and awaits a corresponding bill to be introduced in the Senate.<o

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HR4777 (sponsored by Rep. Bob Goodlatte R-Virginia) “Internet Gambling Prohibition Act” makes it unlawful for ANY person to knowingly engage in internet gambling commerce to: (1) place, receive or otherwise make a bet or wager; or (2) send, receive, or invite information assisting in the placing of a bet or wager." It exempts lotteries, but is silent on horse racing (leaves room for DOJ to interpret).
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In other words, it targets gamblers as well.
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It has passed the House Judiciary Committee and awaits a vote on the floor.

BAGIANT · Jul 30, 2006

And what will give the USA the right to go to an offshore book to do anything? I just can't see them going down to a foreign country and "invading" it to get to one of their sportsbooks.

I think what BoS is doing....even though they fired the guy...is let Carruthers have his day in court Monday or Tuesday...and once he's free on bond...reopen their books. Once he's free I think they'll tell the US to stick it because they aren't doing anything illegal in the country where they reside. After that it will probably be all kinds of legal goings on where they appeal to the WTO and World Court. I just can't see them shutting down just because WE say so. I can see them making good on withdrawals... albeit at a slow pace... so confidence can be built up and people stop withdrawing. Once players see that happening, they will start playing there again and stop withdrawing. Let's face it, if a bettor sees that people are getting paid, and he probably wrote off the money anyway, they will most likely keep playing there. Just the way I see it!

Rawpimple · Jul 30, 2006

kwalder very well written letter. Just read your thread.

Wynn · Jul 30, 2006

Rawpimple said:
kwalder very well written letter. Just read your thread.

Thanks, RP :103631605

TomBrady#1 · Jul 30, 2006

kwalder said:
This is from one of my previous threads:

http://forum.therx.com/showthread.php?t=392756

For clarification purposes:

HR4411 (sponsored by Rep. Jim Leach R-Iowa) “Internet Gambling Prohibition and Enforcement Act” bans online sites from "knowingly accepting" money from U.S.-based customers, and encourages financial institutions to deny Internet gambling transactions. It exempts horse racing and loterries.
<?xml:namespace prefix = o ns = "urn:schemas-microsoft-comfficeffice" /><o></o>
In other words, it targets gambling websites and financial institutions.
<o></o>
It has passed the House and awaits a corresponding bill to be introduced in the Senate.<o></o>

HR4777 (sponsored by Rep. Bob Goodlatte R-Virginia) “Internet Gambling Prohibition Act” makes it unlawful for ANY person to knowingly engage in internet gambling commerce to: (1) place, receive or otherwise make a bet or wager; or (2) send, receive, or invite information assisting in the placing of a bet or wager." It exempts lotteries, but is silent on horse racing (leaves room for DOJ to interpret).
<o></o>
In other words, it targets gamblers as well.
<o></o>
It has passed the House Judiciary Committee and awaits a vote on the floor.

Yes, I responded previously on your thread and liked your letter and sent one myself. Sent several myself actually. I am just trying to think realistically right here. Good job and THanks. Lets keep up the fight.

I am just trying to get down to reality for now. Where are we at??

Wynn · Jul 30, 2006

Tom Brady#1 said:
Where are we at??

A bill is highly unlikely to be brought to the Senate floor for a vote before the 8/7/06 recess. ( see http://forum.therx.com/showthread.php?t=392196&highlight=senate+bill+delayed ).

And there appears to be some growing resistance to it in the Senate (see http://forum.therx.com/showthread.php?t=392916&highlight=anonymous ).

Recently, the community bankers association weighed-in against it ( http://forum.therx.com/showthread.php?t=393360 ).

I'm hopeful.

TomBrady#1 · Jul 30, 2006

kwalder said:
A bill is highly unlikely to be brought to the Senate floor for a vote before the 8/7/06 recess. ( see http://forum.therx.com/showthread.php?t=392196&highlight=senate+bill+delayed ).

And there appears to be some growing resistance to it in the Senate (see http://forum.therx.com/showthread.php?t=392916&highlight=anonymous ).

Recently, the community bankers association weighed-in against it ( http://forum.therx.com/showthread.php?t=393360 ).

I'm hopeful.

That is the good news. We are hopefull of the bill getting crushed for now. But they still went after BOS. What will the result be?? Will there be more?? See what I mean dude. THis bill getting crushed is high priority but there is a little more to figure out. Right???

JayC · Jul 30, 2006

stuckinvegas said:
tsbooks.

I think what BoS is doing....even though they fired the guy...is let Carruthers have his day in court Monday or Tuesday...and once he's free on bond...reopen their books. Once he's free I think they'll tell the US to stick it because they aren't doing anything illegal in the country where they reside.

If they gave him bond based on them closing and they reopened they could quickly revoke the bond.

That's not why they closed. They closed because the people left behind panicked. They closed because their lawyers told them to close.

Now that they have closed, they have probably selaed their fate even if they reopen, so they are now trying to figure out their options. Carruthers getting bail is a non-issue for the remaining management. Getting that TRO thrown out is an issue. The chances of that are slim to none.

Dubpoet · Jul 30, 2006

I would not want to carry a large balance in Netteller either. Or do many large transactions with them. I fear that they will go down or freeze accounts that are identified as gambling related if the Gov comes after them.

Irs may get involved too. They cant come after everyone but some well publized cases of Tax evasion would scare many especially if details of transaction monitoring come out. Honestly I am comfortable with my balances offshore. I only play at Oly, Pinny, and 5 dimes and sometimes Betjam. If there was ever major problems I feel I would get all the money even if I had to fly somewhere to get it. I won't let it get over 50 k and wish it was up that high now.

There is also the IP problem. US gov could set filter standards blocking many sites including here one day.

I think the big books mentioned are safe.

TomBrady#1 · Jul 30, 2006

Dubpoet said:
I would not want to carry a large balance in Netteller either. Or do many large transactions with them. I fear that they will go down or freeze accounts that are identified as gambling related if the Gov comes after them.

Irs may get involved too. They cant come after everyone but some well publized cases of Tax evasion would scare many especially if details of transaction monitoring come out. Honestly I am comfortable with my balances offshore. I only play at Oly, Pinny, and 5 dimes and sometimes Betjam. If there was ever major problems I feel I would get all the money even if I had to fly somewhere to get it. I won't let it get over 50 k and wish it was up that high now.

There is also the IP problem. US gov could set filter standards blocking many sites including here one day.

I think the big books mentioned are safe.

Dubster, I hope so. But who really knows. Yeah I think it is at least smart to keep money at the better books. Good points.

Wynn · Jul 30, 2006

I'm not quite that paranoid. I'm willing to distinguish between Carruthers/BoS and other major books based on what I've read about Carruthers' foolish acts. Further, as it stands now, no additional law is on the books which gives the DoJ anymore enforcement ability than they have had for the past 45 years. I think they will wait to see if they can more efficiently prosecute under a new Internet Gambling law.

Either way, I do not see where they could ever have jurisdiction over an entity which operates legally inside a fellow member WTO country. Therefore, your money at Neteller and at solid books should still be there.

If this bill gets voted down in congress, the DoJ enforcement efforts will be much more difficult and highly scrutinized in court.

WildBill · Jul 30, 2006

At some point the prosecution is going to have to prove some very difficult points. So far sounds like they found some buddies in the local court to side with them, but there are serious legal issues with no precedent that are the deciding factors in this case. A TRO can only stand so long in such a circumstance I am told, but that is the beauty of having friends on the court.

Call me crazy, but I just don't see Carruthers getting convicted and I think he and his attorney know that. They put the screws on him trying to make him testify, but this is a guy with a long history in legal gaming. He didn't get there being friendly with those threatening him. Bookies in London face extraordinary pressures and don't budge. His history suggests he will be the same. At some point the prosecution is going to have to admit their beef and case is Kaplan pre-Costa Rica. If so then Carruthers has nothing to do with the case.

As for the rest, well they obviously are a lot more careful. Travel to or through the US probably will be limited for some time. Everyone awaits to see what happens with Carruthers before making judgement calls.

TomBrady#1 · Jul 30, 2006

kwalder said:
I'm not quite that paranoid. I'm willing to distinguish between Carruthers/BoS and other major books based on what I've read about Carruthers' foolish acts. Further, as it stands now, no additional law is on the books which gives the DoJ anymore enforcement ability than they have had for the past 45 years. I think they will wait to see if they can more efficiently prosecute under a new Internet Gambling law.

Either way, I do not see where they could ever have jurisdiction over an entity which operates legally inside a fellow member WTO country. Therefore, your money at Neteller and at solid books should still be there.

If this bill gets voted down in congress, the DoJ enforcement efforts will be much more difficult and highly scrutinized in court.

I hear you. if this bill does not pass then that helps. You make sense. ANd they surely wanted that guy. But looking at worse case scenario/paranoid case scenario they still used all the gaming charges against him and a lot of those charges are what all other books are doing. I think the scrutiny in court that is and will be happening will be huge. Time will tell. IF I sound worried it is because I am......though long term no way can U.S. stop online gambling. Impossible...just make it harder and more painful, etc etc...

nhoj · Jul 31, 2006

the usa cant stop the local bookie.

They can slow them down. But online if they make it hard to withdraw or deposit it will make a big impact. As far as keeping your money in the safe books goes there may not be any safe books if the USA get there way. Keep hwta you need in your book and not worry about it. I only keep what I plan on losing so if it got taken away I would be upset but not much more than if I lost a bet.