Mansion Poker deals exact duplicate hands 3 minutes apart

I loved Mansion Poker. I do better there than anywhere else. I love the sports exchange even more. But I have to post this in the hopes it spurs them to fix the software or get something new.

I mentioned here http://forum.therx.com/showthread.php?t=395056 that I was having an issue with them. Well the issue was getting them to send me the hand history for the table I wasn't seated at. They finally did so today and it turns out to be the last thing I wanted to see.

This happened about two weeks ago, 22 hands and 3 minutes apart at two seperate tables. The site was having connection problems and this occured in the second hand at the table after they finally resolved it and let players back in.

Odds of exact same board in exact same order- 1 in 311.8 Million(1/52 * 1/51 * 1/50 * 1/49 * 1/48)

Odds of exact same board, in exact same order, big blind having pocket aces, and the button having pocket 10's- 1 in 333.7 TRILLION. (1 in 311.8 Million * 2/47 * 1/46 * 2/45 * 1/44)

I have never asked for a penny back from the hand (I am dguild) and still don't. I just want to play on random functioning software.

HAND HISTORY DETAILS
***** Hand History for Game 3211099 *****

Buy in Table 0521
Hand start time: 2006-07-28 00:22:04

Seat 4 is the button
Total number of players: 8
Seat 1: nutziwish(40.00)
Seat 2:
Seat 3: Cap(40.00)
Seat 4: monkeyballs(57.00)
Seat 5: TiredOfBadBeat(179.75)
Seat 6: dguild(200.00)
Seat 7: Housedawg(40.00)
Seat 8: hou2010(53.75)
Seat 9: p0ck3tac3s(44.75)

Current Number of Players: 14
p0ck3tac3s start position: 44.75
hou2010 start position: 53.75
Housedawg start position: 40.00
dguild start position: 200.00
TiredOfBadBeat start position: 179.75
monkeyballs start position: 57.00
Cap start position: 40.00
nutziwish start position: 40.00
TiredOfBadBeat posts small blind (1)
dguild posts big blind (2)
Housedawg posts (2)
nutziwish posts (2)
Cap posts (2)
dguild is dealt down [Ad Ac]
Housedawg raises to (6)
hou2010 folds
p0ck3tac3s calls (6)
nutziwish calls (6)
Cap folds
monkeyballs raises to (57) and is all-in
TiredOfBadBeat folds
hou2010 says: "lol"
dguild raises to (200) and is all-in
Housedawg calls (40) and is all-in
p0ck3tac3s folds
nutziwish folds
dguild is refunded (143)
monkeyballs says: "1010"
flop: [4c Tc Ah]
dguild says: "AA"
turn: [7d]
river: [Ts]
monkeyballs says: "nh'"
dguild shows [Ad Ac] for a full house, aces full of tens
monkeyballs shows [Td Th] for four of a kind, tens
monkeyballs wins (34)
Housedawg mucks
monkeyballs says: "wow"
monkeyballs wins (132)
dguild says: "oh my lord"
hou2010 says: "lol"
rake is (3)
nutziwish end position: 34.00
Cap end position: 38.00
monkeyballs end position: 166.00
TiredOfBadBeat end position: 178.75
dguild end position: 143.00
Housedawg end position: 0.00
hou2010 end position: 53.75
p0ck3tac3s end position: 38.75
Hand end time: 2006-07-28 00:23:13

***** Hand History for Game 3211077 *****

RingGames
Friday, July, 28, 12:18:59 EDT 2006

Table 518
Seat 3 is the button
Total number of players: 9
Seat 1:ciaffone(7.50)
Seat 2:supremedicta(39.25)
Seat 3:seandamien(8.75)
Seat 4:flipside(20.00)
Seat 5anny Lewis(53.70)
Seat 6:JoshnCO(41.65)
Seat 7:Michael_Fusaro(24.50)
Seat 8:djpancho(9.50)
Seat 9:Bettheriver(18.75)

Current Number of Players: 35
Bettheriver start position: 18.75
djpancho start position: 9.50
Michael_Fusaro start position: 24.50
JoshnCO start position: 41.65
Danny Lewis start position: 53.70
flipside start position: 20.00
seandamien start position: 8.75
supremedicta start position: 39.25
ciaffone start position: 7.50
Danny Lewis posts small blind (0.25)
JoshnCO posts big blind (0.50)
ciaffone is dealt down [6c 8c]
supremedicta is dealt down [X X]
seandamien is dealt down [Td Th]
Danny Lewis is dealt down [3s 3c]
JoshnCO is dealt down [Ad Ac]
Michael_Fusaro is dealt down [X X]
djpancho is dealt down [X X]
Bettheriver is dealt down [X X]
ciaffone says: "NICE STEAL DANNY"
Michael_Fusaro raises to (1.50)
Danny Lewis says: "had pr"
ciaffone says: "lol"
djpancho calls (1.50)
Bettheriver folds
ciaffone calls (1.50)
supremedicta folds
seandamien calls (1.50)
Danny Lewis raises to (6)
JoshnCO raises to (41.65) and is all-in
Michael_Fusaro says: "lol"
Michael_Fusaro folds
djpancho folds
ciaffone calls (7.50) and is all-in
Danny Lewis says: "ah sod it ill lose but hey"
seandamien calls (8.75) and is all-in
Danny Lewis calls (41.65)
Danny Lewis is refunded (0)
flop: [4c Tc Ah]
turn: [7d]
river: [Ts]
Danny Lewis shows [3s 3c] for two pair, tens and threes
JoshnCO shows [Ad Ac] for a full house, aces full of tens
JoshnCO says: "lol"
JoshnCO wins (64.60)
seandamien shows [Td Th] for four of a kind, tens
seandamien wins (3.60)
Michael_Fusaro says: "lol"
ciaffone shows [6c 8c] for a pair of tens
supremedicta says: "wow"
seandamien wins (31.35)
rake is (3)
ciaffone end position: 0.00
supremedicta end position: 39.25
seandamien end position: 34.95
flipside end position: 20.00

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wow

Unreal...what did they say about the dup hands??

somebody said they re-deal cards in vp too.

wow get the mods to help you get your cash out from that disaster.

that is a sham sham sham

MAnsion you have to be kidding me

maxdemo said:

Unreal...what did they say about the dup hands??

Click to expand...

I don't think they realized it was the EXACT same hand when they sent me the other hand history this afternoon, but in that e-mail they passed it off to playing more hands in a shorter period of time online and how quads over quads happens every 5 million hands(why I'm not sure since this wasn't quads over quads). They have not yet replied to my pointing out the 1 in 333 Trillion odds(Usually takes 4-12 hours anyway).

It could be that the pseudo-random number generator backed up to an earlier setting, in which case a whole set of hands around that 22 hand segment will have been re-dealt. A crash could possibly do this by reverting to a previously stored pseudo-random number.

Do you have all the hands from #3211050 through #3211100 to check on this?

If this is the reason I wouldn't worry except when the software crashes and the probability is not 1 in 333 trilllion but 1.000

Woody0 said:

It could be that the pseudo-random number generator backed up to an earlier setting, in which case a whole set of hands around that 22 hand segment will have been re-dealt. A crash could possibly do this by reverting to a previously stored pseudo-random number.

Do you have all the hands from #3211050 through #3211100 to check on this?

If this is the reason I wouldn't worry except when the software crashes and the probability is not 1 in 333 trilllion but 1.000

Click to expand...

Unfortunately I only have the hands from the two tables I was at. Mansion says they can't just pull up individual table hand histories so I had asked they give me the 250 hand batch around my hand, but they only sent the one.

I do think the server crash could have had something to do with it, but the fact this was such a guaranteed action hand doesn't help impressions.

Wow, that blows :cryingcry

yikes

This is the first proof I have ever seen of rigging by a poker room. I am not quite sure if it was rigged intentionally, but sure looks fucked up

I'd wager money on Woody0 being accurate, depending on how they get the date for their pseudo-random, it's quite possible that when the system crashed, the generator got fed the same data that it had before the crash, thus producing the same psuedorandom and thus the same hands.

Don't know if it is rigged, but definietly fucked up. Funny thing I was playing Mansion Tuesday and a guy hit 4 tens, I remember he busted someone with a pretty good hand.Can't remember what it was though?

guildda said:

the fact this was such a guaranteed action hand doesn't help impressions.

Click to expand...

My thoughts exactly.

Now you know how the exchange stays in business with almost no commission

This story definitely makes more sense than that old story regarding noble poker. The person here has really nothing to gain by posting this unless he is pissed at mansion for whatever reason.

He has x-posted this to another site and i am sure mansion will eventually have to come out and explain what happened. I think the computer glitch makes some sense.

Either way, this doesn't impact online poker in general as we have never seen this from any of the major sites were people should be playing anyway. When you play at a smaller site (even if mansion is a huge sportsbook) you take the chance that their software and security aren't as good as the major poker rooms.

Even a pseudo-random generator shouldn't have something like this happen, as long as you're halfway clever on seeding it. Mighty suspicious.

Woody0 said:

It could be that the pseudo-random number generator backed up to an earlier setting, in which case a whole set of hands around that 22 hand segment will have been re-dealt. A crash could possibly do this by reverting to a previously stored pseudo-random number.

Click to expand...

That's a very good explanation, and probably correct.

However, it is still an indication of a very flawed RNG/shuffle algorithm. 1) The system should not rely entirely an a static entropy seed, it should continually be adding randomness from external sources. If it did, this scenario would not be possible. 2) The shuffle should not occur exclusively using a sequential series of random numbers from the seed; instead a seed should be feeding multiple RNG consuming operations simultaneously so it would be near impossible to duplicate a sequence.

Software is important; it ought not be screwed up so badly.

Slot machines, for example, do not generate random numbers on demand. They generate 1000 random numbers per second, always, and the instance of your click numbers are grabbed from this "stream". The notion that slot machines have "cycles" due to running through its random number seed is bunk.

I did finally receive a reply from Mansion today. I had sent them two e-mails, the first telling them how ridiculously impossible this was and to fix their software, the second pointing out this thread and the one at 2+2. This one appears to be in response to the first (I never even got the automated reply to my second e-mail). Anyway, here's their reply. Not much, but something:

Hello dguild,

Further to your recent query regarding hand probabilities in MANSION Poker, our Poker Department have advised that the details have been forwarded to our software team who are investigating the matter thoroughly.

We will contact you further once we have resolved the matter.

Kindest regards,

Sue

weird. I don't like that. "rigging" wouldn't benefit anyone thogh. It's more like flawed.