Ahhhh.....Canadas Vietnam

[SIZE=+1]Canada will be in Afghanistan until it can 'finish the job,' says MacKay (FA minister)[/SIZE]

<SMALL> Canadien Press| 2006-09-17 | James Keller</SMALL>



HALIFAX (CP) - Canadian troops will stay in Afghanistan as long as it takes to rebuild the war-torn country and establish democracy there, Foreign Affairs Minister Peter MacKay said Sunday.

MacKay was responding to comments by Canadian and British military officials - including Canadian Gen. Rick Hillier - who have said international forces will be needed for up to five more years. Canada's current commitment expires in 2009.

"We've said all along that we're there to finish the job," said MacKay before meeting with Dutch Foreign Affairs Minister Bernard Bot.

"Will we be there five years? Will we be there longer? That remains to be seen. I would certainly defer to Gen. Hillier as far as his assessment on the ground."

MacKay said the Afghan mission will be the subject of future debates in Parliament. The current extension was voted in last spring.

Hillier told CTV's "Question Period" on Sunday that while Afghanistan's army is about 35,000 strong, it is not ready to take control yet.

"They've still got a long way to go, so it's going to be another two to five years," said Hillier.

He was echoing comments made a day earlier by the British commander of NATO forces in Afghanistan, who put his estimate at three to five years.
A newly released U.S. Congressional research report also says NATO faces a struggle of five years or more to free Afghanistan from Taliban influence.
MacKay said progress is already evident in Afghanistan. He said four million Afghans have returned to the country since the NATO mission began in 2002, and there have been positive developments in the volatile south.
The Afghanistan mission has been a contentious issue among political opposition in Canada, with the NDP calling for a withdrawal, along with Liberal party leadership candidate Gerard Kennedy.

Polls have suggested Canadians are deeply divided on the mission, as more Canadian soldiers are killed.

But MacKay repeated the Conservative government's assertion that Canada must fight terrorism abroad or face the threat at home.

"We either deal with this situation inside Afghanistan, or wait for it to come here," said MacKay. "Terror doesn't know any boundaries."

Canada has about 2,300 troops in Afghanistan, most of them in the south.
Last week, Ottawa announced it was sending another 450 soldiers and as many as 15 tanks. Canada's overall numbers will only increase by 200, because about 250 headquarters personnel are headed home.

The Conservative government will host Afghan President Hamid Karzai this week as it tries to build public support.

The Afghanistan mission has so far claimed the lives of 32 Canadian soldiers and one diplomat.
MacKay's meeting with the Dutch foreign affairs minister was in advance of a United Nations General Assembly meeting in New York this week.

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I spend alot of time cheerleading for the US GOOD GUYS but one cant help but admire the other countries fighting the terrorists (despite the unilateral mullah-rkey thats spread by the MSM) which are many.Even though douchebags like Chirac decry the war on terror as useless the good guys will protect him and his people from the BAD GUYS anyway.

Thanks to your fine military Canada.....you Canadiens have much to be proud of these days.

Base, the new connie in Canada wants to be an ally, I appreciate his commitment.

Finish the job ... what does that even mean? What are the criteria for a job well done?

Even conservative MPs are calling for some kind of exit strategy.

Harper should tread lightly on this issue, and open it for some kind of debate, or it will cost him a majority next go-around. He should have a boo at Blair's polling numbers for an idea of what non-American citizens think of American adventurism and our blindly following it.

Stupid is as stupid does.

We will not 'win' in Afghanistan. State militaries do not win guerrilla wars. And the evidence is mounting that we've lost already. But, hey, it's not over until the body count sings, no?

A guy in my home city was killed a few weeks ago. And for what? Increased heroin production? Protecting a single city under Western rule? Creating the climate that encourages Taliban support and Western hatred?

Giddy up, dumbfucks.

xpanda said:

Finish the job ... what does that even mean? What are the criteria for a job well done?

Even conservative MPs are calling for some kind of exit strategy.

Harper should tread lightly on this issue, and open it for some kind of debate, or it will cost him a majority next go-around. He should have a boo at Blair's polling numbers for an idea of what non-American citizens think of American adventurism and our blindly following it.

Stupid is as stupid does.

We will not 'win' in Afghanistan. State militaries do not win guerrilla wars. And the evidence is mounting that we've lost already. But, hey, it's not over until the body count sings, no?

A guy in my home city was killed a few weeks ago. And for what? Increased heroin production? Protecting a single city under Western rule? Creating the climate that encourages Taliban support and Western hatred?

Giddy up, dumbfucks.

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Youve already lost....lol.OMG No wonder why Canada was a laughing stock up until just recently.

The Taliban is not the ruling party and if memory serves me correctly the Canadiens kill about 100 bad guys for every good guy that pays the ultimate sacrifice.Once you made it a point to tell me that it wasnt just US soldiers fighting the war-the Canadiens were in the mix as well and deserved recognition.I gave it then and I give it now.

Make sure you seek out one of these fine men/women protecting your sorry ass and tell him/her what a waste the time and effort they put into a mission they beleived in really was.In fact if you look real hard X I bet you can find some real soldiers views on the subject.But the reality shit sucks for liberals to deal with and Im sure you know how the whole thing will shake out much better than them,right?

BTW-No militarys ever won a guerilla war? I think perhaps a new history book is in order. Its not easy,it takes time and a gameplan that is the exact opposite of reploying to the perimeter and watching.You being a military expert and all, probably already knew that tho.

Sorry X if my opinion isnt swayed by a pacifist....I dont really find thier knowledge of warfare to be very accurate.Anyone who thinks these guys fight wars by the seat of their pants are total imbeciles.

Once again...Hooray CANADA.

xpanda said:

Finish the job ... what does that even mean? What are the criteria for a job well done?

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Staying long enough for the new govenment to be able to provide for it's own security would be victory. Certainly not leaving and creating a vaccum that would set us back for generations in terms of ending terrorism and earning the trust of Muslim leaders that risk their lives to support us.

xpanda said:

Even conservative MPs are calling for some kind of exit strategy.

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Although they try to hide it, just about everybody's exit strategy is the same, get troops out but not before the people can protect themselves!

xpanda said:

Harper should tread lightly on this issue, and open it for some kind of debate, or it will cost him a majority next go-around. He should have a boo at Blair's polling numbers for an idea of what non-American citizens think of American adventurism and our blindly following it.

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A leader should never make a decision based on polls. That's not why he/she was elected. Polls are driven by media coverage and sound bites, most Americans can't even name their two Senators or House Rep, never mind understanding an issue or where someone stands on an issue. A real leaders must make the decisions he believes are right, even if it costs him re-election. Non-Americans will like us again when they want something, it's tradition.

xpanda said:

We will not 'win' in Afghanistan. State militaries do not win guerrilla wars. And the evidence is mounting that we've lost already.

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I think you're wrong and I see a lot of evidence to the contrary, we'll all know soon enough, I believe 12 to 24 months.

xpanda said:

A guy in my home city was killed a few weeks ago. And for what? Increased heroin production? Protecting a single city under Western rule? Creating the climate that encourages Taliban support and Western hatred?

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I'm sorry about any deaths, life is often cruel. Many people in my hometown died on 9/11, most people know somebody who died. I surmise you believe it would be better for the Talaban to actually be in control.

xpanda said:

Giddy up, dumbfucks.

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OK, will do, thanks for the advice.

BASEHEAD said:

Youve already lost....lol.OMG No wonder why Canada was a laughing stock up until just recently.

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You think we're winning? On what grounds?

The Taliban is not the ruling party

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Technically, there is no ruling party in Afghanistan. Little bits are ruled by various folks. One area is ruled by Khalilizad (however you spell that) and many other areas are 'ruled' (loosely, as it's not state-bound) by the Taliban. They sure as shit aren't defunct, and they are the group we're fighting on a daily basis. We aren't going to defeat them. Militaries do not fare well in guerilla warfare. Ask the Russians.

Make sure you seek out one of these fine men/women protecting your sorry ass and tell him/her what a waste the time and effort they put into a mission they beleived in really was.In fact if you look real hard X I bet you can find some real soldiers views on the subject.

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Do a wee search of this forum for the statements by a few guys I know who HAVE served there. One of them said 99% of the work he did was repairing shit wrecked by the Russians. Wtf?

I've yet to meet a single Canadian soldier who thinks this mission is anything more than a collossal waste of time. And, no, not a single one of these guys is a 'liberal.'

BTW-No militarys ever won a guerilla war? I think perhaps a new history book is in order. Its not easy,it takes time and a gameplan that is the exact opposite of reploying to the perimeter and watching.You being a military expert and all, probably already knew that tho.

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What modern Western military has won a guerilla war? I mean, WON, not "retreated without a total loss." I am no military or history expert, but I see militaries getting their asses handed to them constantly by homegrown militias. Afghanistan, Iraq, Lebanon, Vietnam, Cambodia.

It's been FIVE FREAKIN YEARS since this shit began. Taliban is pretty damn strong today, whatshisface has a grip on only a very small portion of the country (it would be nada, if we left), and they are now responsible for 80% of the world's heroin production. Can you explain to me how any of that says "VICTORY" to you?

Again, what are the criteria for victory? What do warlovers like you think needs to happen before we can get the fuck out of there? Should we stay, even though our body bag count is many many times higher these past few months, until we achieve this not-yet-defined victory you say we're close to? Do we fight until the whole country stands up and denounces the Taliban? Do we fight until we kill every last potential Taliban supporter? Do we fight until OBL is captured? Do we fight until 2020? 2025? 2030?

I mean, how can you support fighting until the 'job is done' when there is absolutely no clear outline for what that even means? Our leaders are intentionally ambiguous about this. Don't you want to know why?

Willie99 said:

Staying long enough for the new govenment to be able to provide for it's own security would be victory. Certainly not leaving and creating a vaccum that would set us back for generations in terms of ending terrorism and earning the trust of Muslim leaders that risk their lives to support us.

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Too late for that, wouldn't you say? Or did whatshisface legalise heroin and give the Taliban certain areas as their personal playground when I wasn't paying attention?

Five years, Willie. Five fucking years.

How much longer does the current situation have to continue before you're willing to concede that it's not working?

I think you're wrong and I see a lot of evidence to the contrary, we'll all know soon enough, I believe 12 to 24 months.

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Yes, the typical timeline.

Don't ask me now, come back in 12 months.

Fast forward 12 months: don't ask me now, come back in 12 months.

Fuckssakes. It's been five years and the situation is arguably worse than when the offensive began.

12 months indeed.

I surmise you believe it would be better for the Talaban to actually be in control.

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I surmise that it wouldn't make a bit of difference if they were officially in power or loosely in power as now. At least before we were in a position to negotiate with them to some extent. (Oh, and before you roll your eyes, we DID have dialogue with the Taliban.) Now we've run them underground, where they might just well be more powerful, not less.

"Stay the Course"

LOL, fucking Stepford central here

I've never provided or even considered a time line before now. However, it appears most people involved in government & security over there seem to believe the government(s) and security forces are taking hold and they now believe they can control their own country sooner rather then later.

Time will tell.

Five years? is that long? How long does it take to establish a democracy from ground zero while fighting terrorists that are killing citizens that are working to improve their own country?

How long did it take the USA? 20 - 30 yrs initially?

85 years to abolish slavery?

150 years for women to vote?

200 years to rid the country of blacks to the back of the bus laws?

How long did it take to secure Germany after WWII?

I don't know X, I didn't expect this to be over any sooner. It's not like funding an offshore account you know.

cussin'it said:

"Stay the Course"

LOL, fucking Stepford central here

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Of course old Cuss will tell were making more enemies with our take on what needs to be done to ensure at least our safety (as well as others)which may be true.Alot of the fanatics hated us anyway but he may be right.But walking away from a prolonged battle because it is unfavorable to the public is a thousand times worse.Look at the early "victories" claimed by AQ....Somalia....attacks never countered Khobar,USS Cole,etc....not to mention the parallel the left as well as Bin Laden chose to make on several occasions.....the Vietnam "defeat".This is what AQ considers a victory.....they drive us out.Just like they drove out the Russians....they hope to do the same in Afg/Iraq.Mind you even today the Russians cut and run episode is the inspiration for the jihadists to join the ranks of terrorist who simply want to use tham as bombs.They are recruited to believe they can beat the world in this war because they drove the commies out two decades ago.Can you imagine what driving the Americans out would provide as far as propaganda for AQ and other associated "freedom fighters" in terms of future recruitment.Please its a no brainer.

Not this time Cuss.

Kerry is still a Senator (so Ive heard) ,praise be to God.

So is that you and your buddies on the 2009 ticket just now Base?

...then 2019

....2029

...nearly there...stay the course...
ja ja, this is Stalingrad, front on the Volga
:toast:

Willie99 said:

85 years to abolish slavery?

150 years for women to vote?

200 years to rid the country of blacks to the back of the bus laws?

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Not a single one of these social struggles took as many years as you cite to change. Slavery, for example, existed for 85 years in the US, but the fight to abolish it certainly did not. Likewise for the other two.

And, let's not forget, each of these social victories were won by the people who wanted the change, not some outside force hellbent on imposing their will.

How long did it take to secure Germany after WWII?

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WWII was not a guerilla war.

I don't know X, I didn't expect this to be over any sooner. It's not like funding an offshore account you know.

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When five years has passed with no real significant gain, you have to start asking the question: is it winnable? I've cited enough evidence that helps prove we are losing this war, and yet you still come back with, 'give it time.'

Nevermind a timeline. Can you at least cite some concrete criteria that would quantify a win? For example, you mentioned being able to hand over security to home forces. Could you provide some kind of plan to make this happen? Obviously the status quo isn't working.

Hmmm...so peacekeeping is fine when no ones getting hurt

Sept 24 2004

SARAJEVO - Canada's soldiers are leaving Bosnia. The security situation has improved, so their peacekeeping mission is over.
In all, 40,000 Canadian soldiers served in Bosnia during the mission. The last troops left this past weekend, ending more than a decade of bringing peace and stability to a nation that was ripped apart by civil war. Canada and other countries stepped in, along with other nations to stop the ethnic slaughter.
The last regiment in Bosnia was the 12th Armoured Regiment from Valcartier, Quebec. Many of the soldiers served three, even four, tours of duty in Bosnia. "We're leaving a lot of things behind, a sense of humor, helping people as we always do," said Cpl. Gino Grenier.

"I'm glad to return because I have the sensation that I did something here," said Lieut. Josee Bilodeau.

The country they're leaving is much safer than it was in 1992 when the first peacekeepers arrived. Most of the patrolling is now done by liaison observation teams, replacing the armored patrols and the shows of force.

Soldiers now carry nothing heavier than sidearms and dozens of teams now live in private houses in local towns and villages. The Canadians call it 'peacekeeping light.'

"We're trying to pass on authority to local officials," said Cpl. Eric White.

"We're here to support them, not do everything." It's often as simple as stopping at the local cafe for a cup of coffee and a chat, building up and trust and confidence.

Many Bosnians are still worried about what might happen once the peacekeepers are all gone. But Col. John Frapper said he doesn't believes there's any need for those concerns. "Sometimes we've been protectors, sometime enforcers. Now we're trying to put enforcement in the hands of the local police."

All that remains now is the mundane job of dismantling and packing up two military camps and a vast collection of support material.

The job of peacekeeping will now be taken over by a European force and a lot fewer soldiers on the ground.

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Lets see X 2004....minus 1992=12 years.....wheres the outrage?

<CENTER></CENTER>

Ahh, the shrills of "anti-war." There is nothing quite like it.

There are two types of people in this world -- those who understand human nature (the imperative of a law and order society and how it relates to every individual's personal security), and those who do not. Once again, our resident utopian liberals have not disappointed in demonstrating they do not have a fraction of a clue.

I have a simple solution for silencing this malignant type of mindset from public debate: only those who have served should be eligible to vote. The rest should remain on the sidelines. That'll take care of the appeasement crowd ensuring modern civilization remains strong and free. The simple fact is, we should not be spending as much time and energy defending what we know in our hearts to be morally right, against a group of sheeple who cannot come to grips with reality.

See, the danger facing modern civilization is not the threat of militant Islam abroad, rather the culture of a liberal utopia here at home. The enemy knows it cannot defeat us militarily on the battlefield, yet it is keenly aware it doesn't have to: modern liberalism is our weakest link. The more dramatic the beheadings and road side bombs delivered into our living rooms, the louder the irrational higher-pitched shrieks of "immediate withdrawal" -- conspiracy nuts notwithstanding. Yes it’s true, the enemy knows the coddled irrational "anti-war" camp better than they know themselves.

Islamofascism could have not have picked a weaker and more vulnerable target.

eek. said:

So is that you and your buddies on the 2009 ticket just now Base?

...then 2019

....2029

...nearly there...stay the course...
ja ja, this is Stalingrad, front on the Volga
:toast:

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Eek....Ive got a finished attic and a finished basement.When those K-razy Arabs finally drive you from the Emerald Isle give me a call.Ill put you up until you find a way to get into ONE OF THE MANY Mass public assistance programs.Quincy is nice and very culturally diverse.Plus no tickets for dog poop.... WC NE Pats... WC Red Sox...plus John Kerry is our Senator (a liberal like yourselfs dream come true).Finally a man who fights for YOU Eek.

X, I respect your opinion, but don't start to cite it as evidence. We're not fighting the Vietnamn or Korea, we have elected governments growing in their own strength daily, we have citizens that want security and Democracy, and we're fighting a minority that want to fight a Jihad.

When the govenments and security forces are in place and we exit, the Jihadists will twindle.

A decade in Bosnia?

"There are two types of people in this world. " Running quote from The Good, The Bad, and The Ugly.

Willie99 said:

X, I respect your opinion, but don't start to cite it as evidence. We're not fighting the Vietnamn or Korea, we have elected governments growing in their own strength daily, we have citizens that want security and Democracy, and we're fighting a minority that want to fight a Jihad.

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That's the thing, luv, the gov't isn't growing in strength daily.

Four more of our soldiers were killed today in a suicide attack.

In 2002, four Cdn soldiers were killed by 'friendly fire' (US mistake.)

In 2003, two Cdn soldiers were killed by a roadside bomb.

In 2004, one Cdn soldier was killed by a suicide bomber.

In 2005, one Cdn soldier was killed in a driving accident.

So far, 8.5 months into 2006, 29 Canadian soldiers have been killed in Afghanistan.

Winning? Are you shitting me?

If this is winning, I'd hate to see your definition of losing.


http://cnews.canoe.ca/CNEWS/Canada/2006/09/18/1857546.html

Judge Wapner said:

"There are two types of people in this world. " Running quote from The Good, The Bad, and The Ugly.

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So I reckon the Ugly just get no recognition. So sad all those Repugnants.....

:cryingcry