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1. Gambling transactions are not coded. The rest of the world has no incentive to code EFTs, does not want to pay to code EFTs, and quite frankly is very upset with the <?xml:namespace prefix = st1 ns = "urn:schemas-microsoft-com:office:smarttags" /><st1:country-region w:st="on"><st1:place w:st="on">US</st1:place></st1:country-region> government right now.
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2. The government allotted $10million to write this law, figure out how to enforce it, train the banks, enforce it, file injunctions, etc. It would cost them more than $10 million to just teach Bank of America.
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3. The law does not criminalize betting. Even Senator Frist and Congressman Goodlatte have said it does not update the wire act and does not criminilize the act of placing a bet. Wonderful Mr. Goodlatte plans to press for more legistlation next year (It is very important we vote the dems into the majority)
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4. We have no idea what neteller will do. If neteller does fold, there will be countless new processors ready to take the profit just like Neteller jumped in when paypal folded and paypal jumped in when credit cards were blocked.
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5. It takes almost no effort to change your neteller account to a Canadian account. I spoke to neteller about this a few months ago and was told I needed to send in all sorts of documentation about rent or ownership, banking, etc... Yesterday when I asked again (And I asked twice) I was told, I can simply open a new neteller account with a Canadian address and bank account and they will move my funds over. <o:p></o:p>
Both Bank of Montreal and Royal Bank of <st1:country-region w:st="on"><st1:place w:st="on">Canada</st1:place></st1:country-region> will open an account for US citizens (You have to go there to open it) <o:p></o:p>
Mailboxes Etc will provide "suites" in <st1:City w:st="on"><st1:place w:st="on">Toronto</st1:place></st1:City> for about $150/year. <o:p></o:p>
Earthlink provided dial up to <st1:country-region w:st="on">Canada</st1:country-region> and most phone companies have a $40-50/ long distance unlimited package/month to <st1:place w:st="on"><st1:country-region w:st="on">Canada</st1:country-region></st1:place>. This way you can use dialup when accessing neteller.
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I do not think you need to take all these steps, but they are a back up if neteller does block <st1:country-region w:st="on"><st1:place w:st="on">US</st1:place></st1:country-region> accounts and new companies do not take over.
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6. So what can we expect: <o:p></o:p>

As expected most the publicly owns European companies like partypoker, 888, stan james, willhill, etc have decided to block US gamers. This makes sense. Most of these companies are run by people in suits - not bookies. These execs have many business interests and have reasons to need to be able to come to the <st1:country-region w:st="on"><st1:place w:st="on">US</st1:place></st1:country-region>. Companies like Ladbrokes, Stan James, etc make a lot of their money from shops in <st1:place w:st="on">Europe</st1:place> and bets placed at bars. They have a business without the <st1:country-region w:st="on"><st1:place w:st="on">US</st1:place></st1:country-region> business. <o:p></o:p>

Most the Caribbean books and a few from <st1:country-region w:st="on"><st1:place w:st="on">England</st1:place></st1:country-region> have no intentions of leaving. These books were opened by bookies 10 years ago with the intent of evading <st1:country-region w:st="on"><st1:place w:st="on">US</st1:place></st1:country-region> law and offering wagers to US citizens. They do not have another business. <o:p></o:p>

Pinnacle has said nothing will change.
WSEX says it is business as usual.
Cris and Olympic have not felt compelled to say anything but I bet we can guess their stance.
Bodog has stated they will remain a leader in offering <st1:country-region w:st="on"><st1:place w:st="on">US</st1:place></st1:country-region> citizens gaming.
Bowmans went so far as to say they have their own payment processor available if need be and since their booking is legal, the bill does not involve them as you can not fund illegal accounts.
A friend chatted with 5dimes and 5dimes said the bill is unenforceable, a joke, and gambling transactions are not coded. <o:p></o:p>


7. Europe has decided to no longer give the <st1:country-region w:st="on">US</st1:country-region> passenger lists for planes coming to the <st1:country-region w:st="on"><st1:place w:st="on">US</st1:place></st1:country-region>. When <st1:place w:st="on">Europe</st1:place> initially agreed, they were promised the lists would only be used to thwart terrorism and not to invade privacy and arrestt people on other issues. (Obviously the <st1:country-region w:st="on"><st1:place w:st="on">US</st1:place></st1:country-region> broke this) <o:p></o:p>

A court in <st1:country-region w:st="on">Belgium</st1:country-region> is in the process of stopping Swift from providing world wire transfer info (Sender, recipient, and amount) to the <st1:country-region w:st="on"><st1:place w:st="on">US</st1:place></st1:country-region>. <o:p></o:p>
If the <st1:country-region w:st="on"><st1:place w:st="on">US</st1:place></st1:country-region> plans to negotiate either of the above, telling other countries how to bank will not be a good bargaining chip. <o:p></o:p>

8. The WTO has already ruled against the <st1:country-region w:st="on"><st1:place w:st="on">US</st1:place></st1:country-region>. The penalty phase is supposed to be announced in November. The WTO will not see this law kindly. Hopefully the WTO will give <st1:place w:st="on">Antigua</st1:place> the right to not recognize US trademarks and patents. <o:p></o:p>
Sportingbet announced on their website that they are reviewing the WTO ruling and it can be interpreted they may well try to get <st1:place w:st="on"><st1:country-region w:st="on">England</st1:country-region></st1:place> involved in this issue. <o:p></o:p>

9. The original law had criminal penalties for bankers who failed to block transactions. <o:p></o:p>
Before the banking lobby (Who gives the Reps a lot of dough) would sign off on the bill, it was altered. <o:p></o:p>

There are now no criminal penalties. Instead the DOJ can file an injunction if they feel a transaction is a gamblin transaction. Just how many federal injunctions in federal court do you think the DOJ is going to file which then have to be heard by a judge over $1000 gambling transactions while remaining under the $10M budget? <o:p></o:p>

Further the final version of the bill says that if banks find this impossible, they can simply say they tried hard, but it is not possible. <o:p></o:p>

Frist and Goodlatte want everyone to believe this bill will be enforced, but when push comes to shove, money talks, and barring $100 billion to revamp the banking system, trains 1000s of people to monitor transactions, etc enforcement will never see the light of day. <o:p></o:p>

In 5 years, Congress will say - shit it was a 12B industry when we passed that law. Now its a 40B industry. Maybe we should tax and regulate it. <o:p></o:p>

10. After the election fall out when hoards of poker players vote the GOP out, they will then realize that this was a very badly calculated move. <o:p></o:p>

Although Senator Frist and Kyl and Congressmen Leach and Goodlatte may well be willing to block all international commerce in order to block gambling, the rest of the government is not willing to do this. Barring a complete block, it will never be possible to block gambling transactions as cash, gold, derivatives, checks, and EFTs are not coded. Only credit cards are coded and they are only coded because Visa,MC, Amex, and discover require you apply for a merchant account to accept them. When you apply they ask you about your business. I can accept an EFT from any one of you tonight without declaring to anyone what it is about. <o:p></o:p>

So in 6 months, maybe an occasional transaction will be blocked by the biggest few banks, but 90+% of gambling transactions will get through. Maybe the feds will try to get BOA to block suspicious transactions, but if you think that $10million is going to get them to Fred's credit union in <st1:State w:st="on"><st1:place w:st="on">Nebraska</st1:place></st1:State>... <o:p></o:p>

Anyways, life will go on as usual. <o:p></o:p>

Tomorrow I plan to write every sportsbook and casino I know and ask them to ask their players to vote Democrat this November. I don't like the dems or reps, but if at least one chamber is run by the dems, no update to the wire act will get through. An update to the wire act making it criminal to place a bet would be a disaster. <o:p></o:p>

The next goal is to get college students who don't normally vote, but like poker to vote too. I plan to use facebook as best possible to do this. <o:p></o:p>

Carry on folks and good luck. <o:p></o:p>

-Sean <o:p></o:p>
 

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great post except for 10. I think you overestimate the voting power of lazy poker players. I do plan on contributing to a few tight campaigns in order to oust a few republicans. VOting where i live is failr irrelevant since every election is won by a democrat anyway, but i still do it, especially in a year like this.
 

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I am going to add Vanzack's post to this thread to complete the reason why even us guys who make a bunch doing this do not need to worry:


Sorry wild bill - I challenge you to find ONE SINGLE professional gambler (non bookmaker) who has been prosecuted under the Federal Wire Act since the mid 80's with Baborian vs USA. You cant. There hasnt been one. Racketeering, tax evasion - YES.

Go look up USA vs Baborian. It is the legal precedent on the Federal Wire Act.

In the business of betting is a predefined legal term to describe a BOOKMAKER.

Let me quote the ruling that has stood since Nov 25, 1981 and has NEVER been challenged (USA vs Robert Baborian 528 F.Supp 324 paragraph 5):

Congress intended the "business of gambling" to mean bookmaking, i.e. the taking and laying off of bets, and not mere betting. The provocative question is whether this is still the proper definition when the bettor wagers substantial sums and displays the sophistication of an expert in his knowledge of odds making. This court concludes that the statute simple does not covers such a situation. This court finds that Congress never intended to include a social bettor within the prohibition of the statute and that Congress did not contemplate prohibiting the activities of mere bettors, even where, as with Mr Baborian, they bet large sums of money with a great deal of sophistication.

For all of you guys who claim this is your business and claim to know so much about it - you think part of your business plan would include a good consultation with a gambling law attorney.

This is gambling law 101.
 

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Wow...that was *very* good. And keep in mind that this is all *worst case scenario* that Sean is talking about. And for a *worst case scenario* this ain't that bad. So basically if you get all wound up over this you're worried about the potential of possibly being inconvienenced, and all the while it might not be that big a deal.
 

Oh boy!
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"7. Europe has decided to no longer give the US passenger lists for planes coming to the US. When Europe initially agreed, they were promised the lists would only be used to thwart terrorism and not to invade privacy and arrestt people on other issues. (Obviously the US broke this)

A court in Belgium is in the process of stopping Swift from providing world wire transfer info (Sender, recipient, and amount) to the US.
If the US plans to negotiate either of the above, telling other countries how to bank will not be a good bargaining chip."

I am overjoyed to hear this. Finally countries are standing up to the corrupt US government and realizing that the US is using this information for reasons other than to fight terrorism.

Mexico had a beef with the US a year or so ago when the US was obtaining information about Mexican citizens. They stood up to the US also.
 

Oh boy!
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da1prophet said:
Wow...that was *very* good. And keep in mind that this is all *worst case scenario* that Sean is talking about. And for a *worst case scenario* this ain't that bad. So basically if you get all wound up over this you're worried about the potential of possibly being inconvienenced, and all the while it might not be that big a deal.

I agree da1. My concern is that forums like theRX will be hurt because people won't know how to obtain other accounts or won't be willing to suffer the inconvenience. The membership here will suffer.

I think in the long run online gambling will become bigger than it is now but the temporary hit will cause a drop in membership. Now that I think of it, maybe it will get rid of the kids and assholes and only the die-hard gamblers will be left. I guess that won't be so bad.
 

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quantumleap said:
Mexico had a beef with the US a year or so ago when the US was obtaining information about Mexican citizens. They stood up to the US also.

Mexico also stood up to the U.S. by not handing over one of it's citizens who killed a policeman in Arizona while he was in the states illegally. This cop-killer is walking around free in Mexico, and they won't hand him over because they have the death-penalty in the state where he murdered the policeman. I bet you're happy about this also. After all, they're standing up to the U.S., which apparently puts you in a state of fiendish delight.
 

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quantumleap said:
I agree da1. My concern is that forums like theRX will be hurt because people won't know how to obtain other accounts or won't be willing to suffer the inconvenience. The membership here will suffer.

I think in the long run online gambling will become bigger than it is now but the temporary hit will cause a drop in membership. Now that I think of it, maybe it will get rid of the kids and assholes and only the die-hard gamblers will be left. I guess that won't be so bad.

Or the membership might *grow* because they'll need some guidance from more experienced bettors?

And even worst case scenario--that the government sent jackbooted thug storm troopers to shut down every online sports gambling forum in the US--or even if they invaded Canada and Mexico to do it--there would be options. I know this is an extreme example, but you get my point....

There's plenty of countries around the world that could host forums like this without any fear of the US government. They may be in Australia, Russia or wherever, but there will be no shortage of places to get information. Outside the US they won't even need to be subtle about it--they can just say that "this is how US citizens can circumvent the law".

Not that I want to see anything happen to the RX, but the information is the absolute most difficult thing for *any* government to suppress...
 

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sean1 said:
(It is very important we vote the dems into the majority)
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<o:p></o:p>

:)lolBIG: )
 

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Any gambler who votes Republican doesnt care about their right to gamble.
 

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Anti-liberal said:
Mexico also stood up to the U.S. by not handing over one of it's citizens who killed a policeman in Arizona while he was in the states illegally. This cop-killer is walking around free in Mexico, and they won't hand him over because they have the death-penalty in the state where he murdered the policeman. I bet you're happy about this also. After all, they're standing up to the U.S., which apparently puts you in a state of fiendish delight.

As much as I hate to see cop killers walking around free anywhere, Mexico or any other nation has a right to their interpretation of and opinion on our laws. In this example the guy should be brought to justice from a moral standpoint but what are we going to do? Invade Mexico?
 

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Cheese and Rice who made this a political forum.

Take it to another room.
 

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da1prophet said:
As much as I hate to see cop killers walking around free anywhere, Mexico or any other nation has a right to their interpretation of and opinion on our laws. In this example the guy should be brought to justice from a moral standpoint but what are we going to do? Invade Mexico?

IMO, they should have struck up an agreement NOT to give him the death penalty, get him up here and then give him a fair trial.
 

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Anti-liberal said:
IMO, they should have struck up an agreement NOT to give him the death penalty, get him up here and then give him a fair trial.

That would be a very reasonable solution...the bad guy ends up in the grey bar motel where he belongs and Mexico gets what they want with our committment not to fry the guy.
 

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Originally posted by: Mr Negative

Vancouver is wonderful, one of my favorite cities in the entire world. You can stay up to six months at time and there are no other restrictions. If you are not a permanent legal resident of Canada, you can only mortgage 50% of any property you purchase in Canada. Gambling winnings are tax free in Canada as long it is a "hobby" and not your "occupation" but I think Revenue Canada is pretty lax in scrutinizing professional gamblers. Unfortunately you will still owe taxes in the US regardless of where you move. In fact, you will even owe taxes if you renounce your US citizenship for an additional eight years.



You won't have a problem gambling from the US, even with this law. Gambling on the internet was not criminalized by this legislation. Regardless of where you live, the industry just took massive blow and it will be felt by gamblers in all jurisdictions. If you are just trying to get down at books who don't take US customers, just get an address in Canada and a VOIP phone from Canada.

I read this in another forum, what is a VOIP phone?
 

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NightHawk said:
I read this in another forum, what is a VOIP phone?

VOIP = Voice Over Internet Protocol. Basically its a phone service where you make calls using the Internet, like with Vonage.
 

THINK OUTSIDE THE BOX.
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I vowed never to vote again after Bush won, I mean fixed, the second election, but I will make the exception this time and drag my ass out there next month to vote straight democratic........These religious wackos are seriously out of control boys and if they are allowed to prevail, they would turn the US into the Middle East with their nonsensical rules , laws, & beliefs.

These elections may be rigged, but its wortha shot to vote these SOB out! :thumbsup2:
 

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