wil - godfather part 2 question

blueedwards · Oct 26, 2006

i watched it again this past weekend for like the 25th time and, i dont think i understand how fredo talking to johnny ola ended up getting mike's bedroom all shot up. and, an even bigger question would be who killed the gunmen that ended up in that drainage ditch.

help me out. i have enough trouble trying to decide the whole frank pentangeli thing.

wilheim · Oct 26, 2006

Blue..

I think the information Fredo passed along to Johhny Ola (who passed it to Hyman Roth) made Roth feel like he had to hit Mike, much to the surprise of Fredo. Who killed the gunman is speculation but most likely was done by the person in charge of the gone bad hit right after it happened (maybe Johnny Ola himself).

wil..

quantumleap · Oct 26, 2006

I could never figure out why the Don preferred Mike over Fredo. Was it because Fredo was lacking in social skills? If so, couldn't they beat his ass as a young boy in order to get him to shape up?

RobFunk · Oct 26, 2006

QL, that is my guess. Mike is smarter and more ruthless and besides look at the loyalty he shows the Don in GF1.

I am of the opinion that when Mike says "It's OK, I'm here" (or something like that) when they are at the hospital, that is one of the more powerful scenes in the first one, becuase it gives a good glimpse of who will be the new Don.

I dont have the patience to figure everything out in GF2. lol.

FatTony · Oct 26, 2006

quantumleap said:
I could never figure out why the Don preferred Mike over Fredo. Was it because Fredo was lacking in social skills? If so, couldn't they beat his ass as a young boy in order to get him to shape up?

Because he wasn't "smarrrrtttt" like other people say, like dumb. He couldn't handle things.

quantumleap · Oct 26, 2006

Fat Tony said:
Because he wasn't "smarrrrtttt" like other people say, like dumb. He couldn't handle things.

I see what you mean. I suppose you can only beat so much smart into a dumb kid.

RobFunk · Oct 26, 2006

Wasn't Sonny going to be the Don, if he didnt die?

I think when he gets wasted at the toll booth, that is a more graphic scene than the Atlantic city helicopter one that everyone is so critical of in 3.

itsallabouttheloot · Oct 27, 2006

blue edwards said:
i watched it again this past weekend for like the 25th time and, i dont think i understand how fredo talking to johnny ola ended up getting mike's bedroom all shot up. and, an even bigger question would be who killed the gunmen that ended up in that drainage ditch.

help me out. i have enough trouble trying to decide the whole frank pentangeli thing.

I'm with ya on the hitman and who kills him. I've never understood it. It's the only serious questions that I still have about the movies.

Here's the deal on Pentangeli. It comes from a long word doc that I wrote devoted to the movies and original book. Haven't gotten to the book that came out a year ago yet.

After Michael and the family move to Nevada, Clemenza was boss of the family. The Rosato brothers claimed they were promised 3 Bronx territories. After Clemenza's death, Frank Pentangeli took over his operations and didn't give the Rosatos the territories. Pentangeli said Clemenza hated the Rosatos. Pentangeli claimed the Rosato brothers were taking hostages. Willie Cicci claimed that Clemenza was killed instead of dying of a heart attack.

Frank Pentangeli Capo Frank wants permission from Michael to kill the Rosatos which Michael won't give. Michael is trying to figure out who the traitor is in his family and doesn't want anyone killed so soon after the attempted hit in his bedroom. Michael realizes Frank had nothing to do with it after he surprise visits him in NY but tells Frank not to do anything against the Rosatos.
Johnny Ola told Fredo that Pentangeli wanted a peace meeting with the Rosato brothers and was wondering if Pentangeli’s motives for meeting were sincere. Fredo didn’t know. The Rosatos attacked Pentangeli at the meeting. A cop stumbled on to the scene and the Rosatos ran out. Willie Cicci shoots at the Rosatos and their car kills him. Pentangeli thinks Michael had him set up to be hit by telling him to go to the peace meeting. Otherwise he never turns state's evidence against the family.
Soon after, Pentangeli is picked up on bookmaking, possession, and murder one charges. Pentangeli turned state’s evidence and would be called to testify for the Senate. After his brother Vincenzo Pentangeli showed up at the hearings, he clammed up. Pentangeli would only testify that he had been in olive oil business with Vito Corleone. Of course, Michael had brought Vincenzo to the hearings. Frank knew now that he was getting killed (witness protection or not). Pentangeli was back in FBI custody and committed suicide in exchange for the Corleone family providing financially for Pentangeli‘s relatives.

If you have any more questions -- feel free to ask... I've spent a lot of time on these movies and I have a book about the three movies that fills in some holes.

Wynn · Oct 27, 2006

itsallabouttheloot said:
Frank Pentangeli Capo Frank wants permission from Michael to kill the Rosatos which Michael won't give. Michael is trying to figure out who the traitor is in his family and doesn't want anyone killed so soon after the attempted hit in his bedroom. Michael realizes Frank had nothing to do with it after he surprise visits him in NY but tells Frank not to do anything against the Rosatos.la told Fredo that Pentangeli wanted a peace meeting with the Rosato brothers and was wondering if Pentangeli’s motives for meeting were sincere. Fredo didn’t know. The Rosatos attacked Pentangeli at the meeting. A cop stumbled on to the scene and the Rosatos ran out. Willie Cicci shoots at the Rosatos and their car kills him. Pentangeli thinks Michael had him set up to be hit by telling him to go to the peace meeting. Otherwise he never turns state's evidence against the family.

This is a little out of sequence. Michael initially won't give Pentangeli permission because the Family has business with Hyman Roth (Rosato Bros.' boss) which he doesn 't want disturbed. After the failed hit on Michael's home, he surprises Pentangeli at his home. Michael is playing along like he knows Roth was behind the hit on his home and plans "to visit him in Miami." Without consulting Michael, Roth orders the hit on Pentangeli. Meanwhile, Michael plays out the deal with Roth in Cuba (keeping his "friends close, but his enemies closer") and finally discovers that the traitor in his family is Fredo. Upon obtaining this information, Michael then orders the buttons to be pressed.

Hitman26 · Oct 27, 2006

quantumleap said:
I could never figure out why the Don preferred Mike over Fredo. Was it because Fredo was lacking in social skills? If so, couldn't they beat his ass as a young boy in order to get him to shape up?

Fredo was also very sickly as a kid. I think it's refered to in the book.

bulldog77 · Oct 27, 2006

Also, doesn't Willie Cicci testify at the congressional hearings before Pantangeli? You know...'Yeah the Family had a lot of buffers, Senator, he he'. So he wasn't killed in shootout at the Bar.

bulldog77 · Oct 27, 2006

Fredo was weak and stupid just like the bird that Jerry and Kramer bury in the Seinfeld episode also named Fredo.

blueedwards · Oct 27, 2006

bulldog77 said:
Fredo was weak and stupid just like the bird that Jerry and Kramer bury in the Seinfeld episode also named Fredo.

that was a great episode.

blueedwards · Oct 27, 2006

wilheim said:
I think the information Fredo passed along to Johhny Ola (who passed it to Hyman Roth) made Roth feel like he had to hit Mike, much to the surprise of Fredo. Who killed the gunman is speculation but most likely was done by the person in charge of the gone bad hit right after it happened (maybe Johnny Ola himself).

wil..

that makes sense but who opened the drapes? also, was johnny oly in the compound the night mike's room got shot-up? i dont remember him or roth being there...only senator geary, pentangeli, etc.

blueedwards · Oct 27, 2006

RobFunk said:
Wasn't Sonny going to be the Don, if he didnt die?

I think when he gets wasted at the toll booth, that is a more graphic scene than the Atlantic city helicopter one that everyone is so critical of in 3.

i agree. after they shoot sonny 75 times, that one guy kicks him in the head. he didnt have to do that man. that was brutal.

SBBC · Oct 27, 2006

itsallabouttheloot said:
I'm with ya on the hitman and who kills him. I've never understood it. It's the only serious questions that I still have about the movies.

Here's the deal on Pentangeli. It comes from a long word doc that I wrote devoted to the movies and original book. Haven't gotten to the book that came out a year ago yet.

After Michael and the family move to Nevada, Clemenza was boss of the family. The Rosato brothers claimed they were promised 3 Bronx territories. After Clemenza's death, Frank Pentangeli took over his operations and didn't give the Rosatos the territories. Pentangeli said Clemenza hated the Rosatos. Pentangeli claimed the Rosato brothers were taking hostages. Willie Cicci claimed that Clemenza was killed instead of dying of a heart attack.

Frank Pentangeli Capo Frank wants permission from Michael to kill the Rosatos which Michael won't give. Michael is trying to figure out who the traitor is in his family and doesn't want anyone killed so soon after the attempted hit in his bedroom. Michael realizes Frank had nothing to do with it after he surprise visits him in NY but tells Frank not to do anything against the Rosatos.
Johnny Ola told Fredo that Pentangeli wanted a peace meeting with the Rosato brothers and was wondering if Pentangeli’s motives for meeting were sincere. Fredo didn’t know. The Rosatos attacked Pentangeli at the meeting. A cop stumbled on to the scene and the Rosatos ran out. Willie Cicci shoots at the Rosatos and their car kills him. Pentangeli thinks Michael had him set up to be hit by telling him to go to the peace meeting. Otherwise he never turns state's evidence against the family.
Soon after, Pentangeli is picked up on bookmaking, possession, and murder one charges. Pentangeli turned state’s evidence and would be called to testify for the Senate. After his brother Vincenzo Pentangeli showed up at the hearings, he clammed up. Pentangeli would only testify that he had been in olive oil business with Vito Corleone. Of course, Michael had brought Vincenzo to the hearings. Frank knew now that he was getting killed (witness protection or not). Pentangeli was back in FBI custody and committed suicide in exchange for the Corleone family providing financially for Pentangeli‘s relatives.

If you have any more questions -- feel free to ask... I've spent a lot of time on these movies and I have a book about the three movies that fills in some holes.

What book and is it available to purchase?

I have also watched the Godfather over and over - love all of them.. always good to get more information.

itsallabouttheloot · Oct 28, 2006

SBBC said:
What book and is it available to purchase?

I have also watched the Godfather over and over - love all of them.. always good to get more information.

There are two books:
1. The Godfather Returns published Aug. 2005 by Mark Winegardner
This book fills in the time gap between the original book / movie and the start of Godfather 2. Winegardner was selected by Random House via national search to write a new Godfather novel. I have bought the book but haven't read it yet. Obviously, I'm super into the whole saga too --and just haven't had time to get immersed into the book yet and the questions it may answer and create.... Thus, I make no reccommendation either way on it..... I just looked and the book is definitely available at Amazon.com. I'm sure it's at your local Barnes Noble or Borders whatever...

2. The Godfather Companion Everything you ever wanted to know about all 3 Godfather films published Jan 1991 by Peter Biskind Amazon looks like it has used copies available thru third party sources. Also, Powells.com looks like it has 1 copy in stock at the current time. There's alot of good info in the book. Alot of behind the scenes stuff about the making of the movie too -- if you're into that. I'd reccommend it even though it doesn't answer all plot questions. It's not a hard book to find at your local used book store probably either.

itsallabouttheloot · Oct 28, 2006

bulldog77 said:
Also, doesn't Willie Cicci testify at the congressional hearings before Pantangeli? You know...'Yeah the Family had a lot of buffers, Senator, he he'. So he wasn't killed in shootout at the Bar.

Yeah, you guys are right..Just checked thegodfathertrilogy.com which has all three movie scripts... Willie Cicci wasn't killed by the car and did testify afterwards. They don't really explain how he can get hit by a speeding car and survive. As I recall his testimony -- he didn't have any noticeable ailments. Anyone remember if he had any ailments?

itsallabouttheloot · Oct 28, 2006

Third book of course is the Godfather by Mario Puzo which the original movie is based on. If anyone hasn't read that -- there's stuff in there that didn't make the movie...