Baseball Needs to Change This Stat

t3a · Jun 27, 2007

Right now, a pitcher has to go 5 innings or more to get a win if he starts the game (of course if he goes less than that he can still get the loss) and also can't qualify for a win if he leaves a game while his team is leading, the bullpen blows it, but then they come back to win later.

Here are my latest 2 examples of how screwed up this is:

6/24 Hou beats Mil 12-9. Sampson goes 7 innings for the Stros and leaves winning 7-3. Bullpen comes in and tries to lose the game, especially Wheeler, who allows THREE homers in his 2 inning of 'relief'. When Houston comes back and wins in the 10th inning, freakin Wheeler gets the win! WTF.

6/25 Atl beats Wash 4-1. Bergmann gets the loss for the Nats. He pitched the 1st 4 innings, only allowed 1 run, and left trailing 1-0. Traber came in relief and allowed 3 runs, which is really where the game was lost.

This crap happens all the time, and it really screws these starting pitchers with lousy bullpens. And then the guys who get wins for pitching a third of an inning just before their team takes the lead is a joke too. I am usually a baseball purist, against things like inventing the DH or giving out saves to guys who only put the game in jeopardy with the men they put on base. But I think they need to come up with something new here.

JohnnyB · Jun 27, 2007

t3a said:
6/24 Hou beats Mil 12-9. Sampson goes 7 innings for the Stros and leaves winning 7-3. Bullpen comes in and tries to lose the game, especially Wheeler, who allows THREE homers in his 2 inning of 'relief'. When Houston comes back and wins in the 10th inning, freakin Wheeler gets the win! WTF.

...Milwaukee played KC on the 24th. Milwaukee just got done sweeping the Astros today (25th-27th).

RupertPupkin · Jun 27, 2007

Good idea , but it will never change

t3a · Jun 27, 2007

Johnny B said:
...Milwaukee played KC on the 24th. Milwaukee just got done sweeping the Astros today (25th-27th).

yea you're right it was Houston beating Texas that day , not Milwaukee

Wheeler still didnt deserve the win

fhmesq44 · Jun 27, 2007

Additional stats that need to be changed:

- guy can never get credit for an RBI when he hits into a DP. Admittedly this often kills an inning, but why shouldn't a guy get credit for a late inning DP that gets a run home in a tie situation or down by 1?

- Should be able to give out 1/2 errors; e.g, guy boots a grounder but recovers to make a moderately bad throw to 1st taht the 1B should but doesn't pick, both should get 1/2 error.

- The whole "can't assume a DP" therefore no error is completely retarded. If an SS gets the force at 2b and the 2B drops the ball while transferring from glove to hand, why isn't that an error? But for the dropped ball the guy at first is out (assuming he would be out).

- ground out advancing runner to 3rd or home in certain situations should be a sac.

- having to touch a ball for it to be an error. If two guys converge on a ball and both back off without either touching it, why is that not an error? Give them each 1/2 error

- if a guy boots a foul pop it shouldn't be an error if the guy proceeds to make an out with no advancement of runners. no harm, no foul.

- one could also make an argument that un-earned runs derived from a pitcher's error should be earned runs. however, the argument against this is that the ERA is a measure of how well the guy pitched and his error shouldn't be judged when determining how well he pitched.

primetime21+ · Jun 27, 2007

how could they change the rule without totally screwing up the record books?

Timetopay · Jun 27, 2007

I think the rule should be to give Sidney Ponson a loss in every game

primetime21+ · Jun 27, 2007

Timetopay said:
I think the rule should be to give Sidney Ponson a loss in every game

Do they need a rule for that?

SSI · Jun 27, 2007

those pitching situations, could be left to the official scorer....... just as in the case:

pitcher 1 goes 3 innings and is leading 3-0 when he comes out, pitcher 2 goes 4 innings and his team sill leads 3-0...... pitcher 3 comes in and pitches the final 2 innings and the team wins 3-0......... do you know who the winning pitcher is?

its up to the official scorer to give it to either pitcher 2 or 3.......... pitcher 1 cannot win, he didnt go 5 and the offical scorer will decide the winning pitcher, even if they use 10 of them,,,,,,, provided they never give up the lead.....

barman · Jun 27, 2007

Looks like T3a has Sampson on his Fantasy BB starting staff.....

dogs24 · Jun 27, 2007

You're right about the inequity in the assignment of the win stat.

But at least the way wins are allotted, as well as the other stats mentioned by t3a, don't affect the outcomes of games.

The same can't be said of the stupid importance placed on saves, and the utter non-importance placed on holds. The fact that saves are such an important stat and holds are not impacts the decisions managers make in a game to the detriment of the integrity of the game.

To wit: How many times have you seen a critical, game altering situation come up in the 6th or 7th inning...a 1-run game, say, with one team threatening to score with 2nd and 3rd and no out. In that situation, the pitching team is DESPERATE for a strikeout or two. But they will NEVER bring in their best reliever/strikeout artist in that situation, because that guy is usually assigned to the 'closer's role', a job made up in the last 30 or 40 years only since the save became an official stat. Instead, in that situation, rather than blow an opportunity for the 'closer to earn a save', the pitching team always prefers to use some inferior scrubby middle reliever, again, so that the closer can be 'saved' for the save'. Thus, the stats of the closer are deemed more important than the pitching team's chances to win. Of course, more often than not, the closer never gets the opportunity to earn the save, because the crappier reliever ends up giving up the lead.

If 'holds' were regarded as highly as or more than 'saves', you'd see managers doing what they should be doing: bringing in the best pitcher for a given situation in a game. If they didn't have to worry about tarnishing a pitcher's opportunity to secure a notch in a nonsensical stat, they'd be free to manage to win the game, instead of winning their closer an extra S. 'Twould make baseball a far better game.

Timetopay · Jun 27, 2007

30 or 40 years i generous. 80s top guy would get like 25 having many 3 inning saves when needed

fhmesq44 · Jun 28, 2007

Dogs, I have gone on and on about that same thing in conversations/debates in the past and 100% agree with you. It makes no sense and as you say, often the "closer" is sitting there at the end of the game watching the other team win. There is no reason multiple saves can't be given in a game and probably should. If a guy gets out of a bases loaded jam, up by 1 in the 7th, he has done as much as anyone else to "save" that win and often does more than the closer who pitches the 9th and goes 1, 2, 3.

I was watching a Pitts game earlier in the year and their manager actually brought in Torres in the 7th in a critical situation. Don't recall what happened but I remember thinking "FINALLY!"

themanej2001 · Jun 28, 2007

Here is my only beef with baseball and pitching stats...

Say a pitcher pitches 7 innings and leaves losing 1-0... and that inning he leaves the B-Pen gives up 6 runs... and they are now trailing 7-0... Then the offense scores 6 runs... and they lose 7-6...

The guy who pitched 7 innings gets credit for the loss because they never had the lead... But he didn't lose the damn game...

That is my only beef

prodigy · Jun 28, 2007

themanej2001 said:
Here is my only beef with baseball and pitching stats...

Say a pitcher pitches 7 innings and leaves losing 1-0... and that inning he leaves the B-Pen gives up 6 runs... and they are now trailing 7-0... Then the offense scores 6 runs... and they lose 7-6...

The guy who pitched 7 innings gets credit for the loss because they never had the lead... But he didn't lose the damn game...

That is my only beef

how often does this happen? once a season? part of being a pitcher is taking the win when you go 5 innings, give up 5 runs, but your offense bails you out with 8 runs of support ... but then also accepting the tough luck loss when you go deep into a game and give up 1 or 2 runs but the offense doesnt help you out.

themanej2001 · Jun 28, 2007

prodigy said:
how often does this happen? once a season? part of being a pitcher is taking the win when you go 5 innings, give up 5 runs, but your offense bails you out with 8 runs of support ... but then also accepting the tough luck loss when you go deep into a game and give up 1 or 2 runs but the offense doesnt help you out.

No happens a lot more then you think when a starter gives up less runs then his team will score in the game... But since he left the game when he was trailiong he gets the loss.

BigPIG19 · Jun 28, 2007

the whole starter going 5 innings prevents Johann Santana going out there and his offense scoring 5 runs in the 1st inning, and then Johann being taken out after 1 inning, getting the win, and then going out there and pitching the next night. the 5 inning rule is a good rule, and the whole 1/2 error thing you proposed is preposterous. I do however agree that a Hold is as important as a save, and should be a recordable stat.

jasin4000 · Jun 28, 2007

BigPIG19 said:
the whole starter going 5 innings prevents Johann Santana going out there and his offense scoring 5 runs in the 1st inning, and then Johann being taken out after 1 inning, getting the win, and then going out there and pitching the next night. the 5 inning rule is a good rule, and the whole 1/2 error thing you proposed is preposterous. I do however agree that a Hold is as important as a save, and should be a recordable stat.

Funny that I saw this on here tonight, because I was watching the pirates game tonight and they had a stat for one of the pirates middle relief pitchers and they had a stat on "holds" and I never saw them show that before tonight, unless I wasn't looking.

tkf18ny · Jun 28, 2007

I couldnt agree more- this is why i never look at win-loss record when judging a pitcher since its such a joke of a stat
i remeber when a big deal was made about Al Leiter never having a playoff win
Yet he had a game where he gave up 1 run in 8 innings and left up 4-1
Benitez comes in and the Giants tie the game
The Mets win in the 10th and Benitez gets the win

MIKEY.1TIME · Jun 28, 2007

like the 5 inning rule, but getting a win after pitching to 2 batters late is ridiculous. why does every game have to have a winning pitcher?

Baseball Needs to Change This Stat

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