i prefer to reference the present. right now, bedard is better. if im betting on one of them to be more dominant in 2008, im taking bedard.
arty:
depends who they are playing for. in current states i think bedard gets better numbers, if johan goes to boston and gets a lot of runs i think he will look better.
true. im merely talking about the numbers a pitcher actually controls, 'wins' is not one of those numbers. the biggest indicators of dominating come with your ratios:
HA:IP:K
we'll see whos better in 08. obviously, if bedard goes to the nl he'll have worse competition to pitch against, but hes already proven that he can dominate the best lineups. i believe he was 2-0 with an era of about 1.25 vs the yanks in 07.
How do K's determine wins? You are just skewing these statistics to make Bedard look better. K's are not an indicator what so ever of wins a pitcher controls. ERA and WHIP are the two biggest indicators.
Something that they split last year. WHIP may be the best indicator in the world. And Johan was the only starter in baseball to have a WHIP below one for three straight years. In fact it's something the great Clemens has only done once in his entire career.
Johan is the most dominating starter of the last twenty years for reasons like this. A WHIP below one for a starter is jaw dropping and he did it three straight seasons. While keeping his ERA below three in all three of those seasons. Something Bedard has yet to do once. I am a Bedard fan but he isn't in the same league as Johan, no starter in baseball, outside of maybe Beckett is.
id say you're smart, but id be lying to ya. how do ks determine wins? what does that mean? who said they do? not able to read are ya? thats ok, im sure you can flip burgers.
era and whip are nice, yep.
this here: "K's are not an indicator what so ever of wins a pitcher controls" that doesnt even qualify as english, so i'll skip over that.
:aktion033
johan has had a nice whip, its a tad different pitching in the al east than it is in the central though. as i said, the biggest indicators of dominating are your ratios.
hits allowed to innings pitched
ks to innings pitched
ks to hits allowed.
bedard was better last year. yep, 3 years ago johan was better, thats neat. if i was building a team for 2005 i would take johan. i, however, am talking about 2008.
not in the same league? laughable, bedard was better than johan last year. thats not an opinion, bud, thats a fact. as for beckett, hes never had as good a whip as bedard had last year nor as low an era. thats includes pitching in the nl...you, my friend, arent a baseball guy. thats ok, i still love ya.
arty:id say you're smart, but id be lying to ya. how do ks determine wins? what does that mean? who said they do? not able to read are ya? thats ok, im sure you can flip burgers.
era and whip are nice, yep.
this here: "K's are not an indicator what so ever of wins a pitcher controls" that doesnt even qualify as english, so i'll skip over that.
:aktion033
johan has had a nice whip, its a tad different pitching in the al east than it is in the central though. as i said, the biggest indicators of dominating are your ratios.
hits allowed to innings pitched
ks to innings pitched
ks to hits allowed.
bedard was better last year. yep, 3 years ago johan was better, thats neat. if i was building a team for 2005 i would take johan. i, however, am talking about 2008.
not in the same league? laughable, bedard was better than johan last year. thats not an opinion, bud, thats a fact. as for beckett, hes never had as good a whip as bedard had last year nor as low an era. thats includes pitching in the nl...you, my friend, arent a baseball guy. thats ok, i still love ya.
Ok let me break you down and embarrass you a little bit; sorry for this but you are asking for it.
You'll take Cabrera over A-Rod why? You argue that Bedard was better based on raw statistics and that is pretty much your only argument. Well I don't think anyone can argue that Cabrera was better than A-Rod statistically. So you contradict yourself right there and take two different sides on similar situations.
Last time I checked one season doesn't make you better, and actually their numbers were very similar.
Johan's ERA was .17 higher than Bedards, but his Whip was .015 lower. Johan pitched 219.00 Innings marking his 4th straight season over 200 innings pitched something Bedard has never done. When signing a pitcher you need to look at durability as a big issue. Otherwise Wood and Prior would be considered top 5 pitchers in the league but they always got hurt so they weren't. Johan had more strikeouts, yes he pitched more innings but you are not penalized for being healthy you are rewarded. The staggering number is that Johan had fewer walks in more innings pitched. His control is dominating. This was the worst year of Johan's career while it was a career year for Bedard, yet Bedards numbers were still about equal.
Proving something over a period of time is more important than one season. Let me guess in 1997 you would have taken Pat Hentgen over Roger Clemens entering the season because Hentgen just had a career year?
No consistency is more important as a pitcher, and health is a close second. Johan is the best pitcher in the game, BY far, for the fact that he is consistent and healthy while dominating. When Bedard is a 2-time Cy Young award winner with a career record of 93-44 come talk to me. Bedard needs to go 53-10 over his next 63 decisions to equal Johan's career record at this point AND THEY ARE THE SAME AGE.
Your argument holds no water and makes no sense. You argue these things because you're a fan of a player. Your vision is skewed and you like causing an uprising, but the facts are above. One season doesn't make a pitcher better the following year. If anything you are guaranteed Johan's numbers but you aren't guaranteed Bedards. And even if Bedard is at his ABSOLUTE best and Johan has a down year, Johan still has the chance to be a better pitcher.
This is why I thank god that many people on this board are not GM's because they are clearly clueless towards issues like these. Three years ago? Try two years ago where Johan was the best pitcher in baseball. Last year he was a top 5 pitcher in baseball, and has been every season for the last 4 seasons. Bedard had a career year and was maybe equal to Johan.
embarrass me, the more you talk, the dumber you seem. i'll take cab over arod because hes younger and shown he can do a lot in a lineup thats not very good, in a park thats huge, with no protection. simple enough?
:aktion033
i'll take bedard over johan because ive watched them each pitch many times and bedard has better stuff. bedards 10.93 ks per 9 in the toughest hitting division in baseball aint a fluke, son. bedard has a better fb and a much better breaking ball. bedard has 3+ versions of the fb he'll throw at any time. johan has the much better change up. again, you have to be able to take some things into consideration when looking at raw stats. take brandon phillips for example, you think hes a 30/30 guy in san diego? of course not, dont be silly. then again, i have a feeling your only option is too be silly.
:aktion033
wood and prior would be what? you reference them getting hurt as if thats their only knock in recent history. how about you go take a look at priors recent numbers and then see if what you've said here makes any sense. hes always hurt And hes terrible at baseball. not a good combination, sport.
:aktion033
bedard had over 1K more per 9 than johan, thats not real close. both were impressive, but bedard was more dominant, as i said. again, you dont seem to want to consider the leagues that these two guys play in. i understand why, it doesnt back your argument.
:aktion033
hentgen over clemens? comical, i watch a guys stuff, bedard has better stuff and last year he had better numbers in a better division.
:aktion033
career record? bedard has about the same record as beckett did when he left florida. he pitched for a better team and now he wins more. johan wouldnt win with the os either. comical reply from someone who doesnt understand much. johan has been great, obviously, but teams win, not pitchers. a couple years ago rod lopez had more wins than rogers clemens. lopez had an era near 5 and clemens had an era near 1.50, who was better?
:aktion033
bedards best? how do we know if hes even reached that yet? he didnt even throw a change up last year and he was better than johan, wait till he gets control of that. bedard is behind because he missed a lot of time following tommy john...
bedard has better stuff than johan. we'll see that again in 2008.
arty:embarrass me, the more you talk, the dumber you seem. i'll take cab over arod because hes younger and shown he can do a lot in a lineup thats not very good, in a park thats huge, with no protection. simple enough?
:aktion033
i'll take bedard over johan because ive watched them each pitch many times and bedard has better stuff. bedards 10.93 ks per 9 in the toughest hitting division in baseball aint a fluke, son. bedard has a better fb and a much better breaking ball. bedard has 3+ versions of the fb he'll throw at any time. johan has the much better change up. again, you have to be able to take some things into consideration when looking at raw stats. take brandon phillips for example, you think hes a 30/30 guy in san diego? of course not, dont be silly. then again, i have a feeling your only option is too be silly.
:aktion033
wood and prior would be what? you reference them getting hurt as if thats their only knock in recent history. how about you go take a look at priors recent numbers and then see if what you've said here makes any sense. hes always hurt And hes terrible at baseball. not a good combination, sport.
:aktion033
bedard had over 1K more per 9 than johan, thats not real close. both were impressive, but bedard was more dominant, as i said. again, you dont seem to want to consider the leagues that these two guys play in. i understand why, it doesnt back your argument.
:aktion033
hentgen over clemens? comical, i watch a guys stuff, bedard has better stuff and last year he had better numbers in a better division.
:aktion033
career record? bedard has about the same record as beckett did when he left florida. he pitched for a better team and now he wins more. johan wouldnt win with the os either. comical reply from someone who doesnt understand much. johan has been great, obviously, but teams win, not pitchers. a couple years ago rod lopez had more wins than rogers clemens. lopez had an era near 5 and clemens had an era near 1.50, who was better?
:aktion033
bedards best? how do we know if hes even reached that yet? he didnt even throw a change up last year and he was better than johan, wait till he gets control of that. bedard is behind because he missed a lot of time following tommy john...
bedard has better stuff than johan. we'll see that again in 2008.
Daniel Cabrera has better stuff than Greg Maddux ever did, but Maddux is going to the Hall of Fame and Cabrera isn't. Plenty of pitchers have great stuff and that doesn't make them better than other people with lesser stuff. I don't care if he has a better fastball I actually disagree greatly because Johan can put his wherever he wants. He also has arguably the best change up baseball has seen in 20+ years. That may be the best pitch in baseball, and he has it.
Your argument is yet to make any sense or hold any water. He has better stuff in your opinion so you'll take him.
Give me a starting staff with Mark Buehrle, Lackey, Johan, Penny and Young over...
Over Cabrera, Zambrano, Kazmir, Burnett, and Bedard any day of the week.
And you could argue those guys have better stuff but the guys on the top win a lot more games than the guys on the bottom because stuff doesn't cut it in the MLB, you need to know how to pitch.
Give me Maddux in his prime over Randy Johnson.
But you probably would have taken Randy over Maddux and that is where we disagree. I'll take the consistent all time great over the Strike out specialist who is inconsistent at times.
