Give me the insider scoop on how a book works?

redatmosphere · Jan 6, 2009

Hey all,

I've heard so much about how a book sets its line. The usual debate is whether or not a book "sets up" a square to bet a certain side or whether they set/move the line to achieve 50/50 action. I've never really heard a resolution to this argument. Also, what does an offshore book look like in terms of its bankroll, etc? Any innerworkings to a book that you could give me would be really helpful. I know a lot of you (VJ, Wil, etc.) have book experience and I was hoping that you could share some of it. Even if you only have a "you'll never believe this" story, I'd love to hear it. I think this stuff is really fascinating. Thanks so much and I look forward to the information and stories.

TheWolf · Jan 6, 2009

50/50 action is a myth. Books want to make money period. If they have one sided action, then they are hoping like hell their side comes in.

redatmosphere · Jan 6, 2009

The Wolf said:
50/50 action is a myth. Books want to make money period. If they have one sided action, then they are hoping like hell their side comes in.

Paying 10/11 would seem like they wouldn't mind a 50/50 game right?

wilheim · Jan 6, 2009

redatmosphere

Finding the best number..

There are big books with huge clientele that include the sharpest players in the Western World and then there are the smaller books who use the lines hung by the big books as a guide to where they want to be especially if they are looking at no action to very small amounts of action on their wager charts on any particular game. They move numbers on air when the big books move off sharp money so that they will not be targets for wiseguys picking off stale numbers even for limits as low as a nickel.

For the anything above the smallest recreational hobby bettor subscribing to a service like SportsOptions and having several accounts from books listed on a service like SportsOptions funded in order to compete with the entire sportsbetting public for the best line available is an excellent way to be a competitive sportsbettor.

Getting the best number still available on the side that is seeing wiseguy money is the name of the game for the average player who does not do well handicapping his own stuff. A good line service is a must for any even semi serious player and used correctly will pay for itself year in and year out.

BOL. wil.

redatmosphere · Jan 6, 2009

wilheim said:
Finding the best number..

There are big books with huge clientele that include the sharpest players in the Western World and then there are the smaller books who use the lines hung by the big books as a guide to where they want to be especially if they are looking at no action to very small amounts of action on their wager charts on any particular game. They move numbers on air when the big books move off sharp money so that they will not be targets for wiseguys picking off stale numbers even for limits as low as a nickel.

For the anything above the smallest recreational hobby bettor subscribing to a service like SportsOptions and having several accounts from books listed on a service like SportsOptions funded in order to compete with the entire sportsbetting public for the best line available is an excellent way to be a competitive sportsbettor.

Getting the best number still available on the side that is seeing wiseguy money is the name of the game for the average player who does not do well handicapping his own stuff. A good line service is a must for any even semi serious player and used correctly will pay for itself year in and year out.

BOL. wil.

That's really good stuff. I would guess that smaller books would just grab a 5dimes line or something and see where that gets them. I assume that 5dimes would be one of the larger books out there. What kind of action are they seeing on let's say: a.) any weekend PAC-10 matchup b.) BCS game c.) Superbowl.

How do books, offshore especially, identify sharps? Are there people assigned to every account to watch the activity? Sorry for all the questions, there just seems like so many angles that I don't have answers to.

Illini · Jan 6, 2009

How does a book work?

You send them money. You bet on games. You lose.

The result is that the book takes your money, and convinces you that you had a good time after donating to them.

downtown2222 · Jan 6, 2009

redatmosphere said:
That's really good stuff. I would guess that smaller books would just grab a 5dimes line or something and see where that gets them. I assume that 5dimes would be one of the larger books out there. What kind of action are they seeing on let's say: a.) any weekend PAC-10 matchup b.) BCS game c.) Superbowl.

How do books, offshore especially, identify sharps? Are there people assigned to every account to watch the activity? Sorry for all the questions, there just seems like so many angles that I don't have answers to.

Not every acct but once you start winning...and putting down decent sized wagers, you will be watched and they start moving the lines based on your plays...

redatmosphere · Jan 6, 2009

Illini said:
How does a book work?

You send them money. You bet on games. You lose.

The result is that the book takes your money, and convinces you that you had a good time after donating to them.

Thanks :finger:

redatmosphere · Jan 6, 2009

BounceBack said:
Not every acct but once you start winning...and putting down decent sized wagers, you will be watched and they start moving the lines based on your plays...

What sort of wager size starts to get watched? Maybe a nickel/game and playing 3-5 games a day?

Illini · Jan 6, 2009

redatmosphere said:
Thanks :finger:

I'm just being honest with you. It isn't that hard to pick 53% winners and show a small profit.

However, there are a million factors going against you. You have to keep your emotions out of your decision making. Almost nobody can do that.

The books are counting on bettors beating themselves, because 99% do. The few that win do it full-time and look at every bet on the board, make a decision to bet or pass, and then don't think about that bet ever again, win or lose.

How hard is that to do? Nearly impossible.

$tinky · Jan 6, 2009

Go to amazon.com and buy a book called "The book on bookies". Its got a lot of bullshit in it but you'll read it cover to cover and never put it down if you're interested in this topic.

Its about local bookies though not offshore books.

ericleroi · Jan 7, 2009

a lot of books just copy lines from exchanges or bigger books. of course having a sharp punter that wins helps so you can adjust accordingly

$tinky · Jan 7, 2009

having a sharp punter that wins also sucks because you have to pay him.

Betfair.com · Jan 7, 2009

"How do books, offshore especially, identify sharps? Are there people assigned to every account to watch the activity? Sorry for all the questions, there just seems like so many angles that I don't have answers to. "

Although I now work for Betfair which is an Exchange and not a Bookmaker, I have also worked for a US-facing bookie and one of the biggest UK bookies.

Anyway, one of them had code on their database which identified winners. So whether you were lucky or a sharp - the program flagged you up in the database. Once you were flagged in the db, one of the traders took a look at your account and if you were seen as being lucky, you were dismissed and you were allowed to bet 2x-5x the site's normal limits. The trader made a note in your file and the system increased your max bet.

If you were seen as making sharp moves, you would be factored down. So the trader simply puts in that you can only bet 50% or 10% of the site's minimum bet.

So this site doesnt really kick you out but effectively manages you out of the business. You simply don't even bother anymore if you can only bet 5% of the site max.

"Stake factoring" in one form or another is obviously a huge part of any bookie's business.

Maniac · Jan 7, 2009

Booking to your client base is one of the most important things for me - if you know your clients habits, then you can better predict what they will bet and adjust your lines accordingly. This is crucial for locals, but just as important offshore.

Florida locals will be likely be getting hammered on Florida in the BCS game so with this knowledge then instead of pricing them up at -4 you could book them at -6.5 and chances are you would still take a majority of one-sided Florida business.

This way you can limit your exposure somewhat (if you are a smaller local) yet still keep a decision one way or other. More importanly, in the example above, you are now in a position where:

Florida lose or win by 3 or less = You win, but would have won anyway
Florida win by 4 = you win, but would otherwise have pushed
Florida win by 5 or 6 = You win when you would have lost
Florida win by 7 or more = you lose, but you would have still lost anyway

Granted if they lose outright then you would probably win a bit less than you otherwise would have done if you stayed at -4 but that is offset by the fact that if they win by 5 or 6 then you win when you would have lost.

Also, it gives you the option to lay some of it off at the -4 with another bookie or offshore if you wanted to further protect your position and possibly get the middle yourself.

A lot does depend on how big of an operation you are, but I think most books would be happy with a protected moderate position on every match, rather than huge one-way positions on every game...

ivkk · Jan 15, 2009

ericleroi said:
a lot of books just copy lines from exchanges or bigger books. of course having a sharp punter that wins helps so you can adjust accordingly

Seems like it

Iceman · Jan 15, 2009

The Wolf said:
50/50 action is a myth. Books want to make money period. If they have one sided action, then they are hoping like hell their side comes in.

they arent hoping for 50/50 action on one game but they want 50/50 on ALL (KEY WORD) GAMES. That gives them a huge profit magin of 5% or so. Cant beat that.

Iceman · Jan 15, 2009

I think the key a book looks at is if the player is getting a better line at close then the consesus line. This is every bit if not more important to them then if a player is a winning player. They fear the guy with a better number every time.

HerzvanRentle · Jan 15, 2009

Whn there are 3 or more outcomes lets just say books are not shouting home the jolly.

VIEJODINOSAUR · Jan 15, 2009

I believe that 50-50 is a myth...books need decisions to survive...way too much overhead...the thing a book fears the most is the game landing on the number...if numbers don't fall, books usually win...books have much the best of it with props, teasers, parlays, money lines, casinos, and other forms of betting...books don't mind decisions, they absolutely could not survive with the same amount of money on each side...