BlackJack Strategy

shdw01 · Jun 17, 2012

I have recently played some blackjack where the dealer deals face up to everyone on the table (out of a shoe) and only deals themselves one card. they take their second card AFTER all players have taken their cards.

I assume for the most part (1st base, 2nd base, etc.) basic strategy should not be altered in any way because that does not change the cards.

However, I am beginning to think if you are on 3rd base, does basic strategy change?

i.e. if dealer is showing a 7 and you have a hard 16, do you hit or stand?

I know in basic strategy you hit. But i'm starting to think that stand is maybe the better move.

if the next card is 10, J, Q, K - does not matter. I hit or stand i either bust and lose or he outdraws me with the same card and I lose.

if the next card is a 6, 7, 8, or 9. A hit and I bust. A stand and he is left with a 13, 14, 15, 16 and has to take another card. this seems awesome.

4 or 5 - i would have a 20 or 21 with a hit or leave him with a 10 or 11 with a stand......standing seems horrible in this situation

A - I hit i have a 17, i stand I lose. I guess hitting gives me a good shot at win/push.

2, or 3 - too many factors for my little brain to compute

any thoughts by numbers guys appreciated.

Doug · Jun 17, 2012

check wizard of odds. I forget what this game is called, but it Shirley has a higher hold than normal BJ. Vegas rarely spreads a bad game...for them.

There is some catch to this game, I forget what it is, but it exists !

shdw01 · Jun 17, 2012

i really want to know what the catch is. I'm not sure but on wizzard of odds (i checked before)...sounds like Panamanian Blackjack.....strategy says to stand but I really think 3rd base play is totally different because a stand has a direct correlation with the dealer's 2nd card.

Soriano12 · Jun 17, 2012

Maybe I'm missing something, but how exactly does this differ from "standard" BJ?
You are always forced to make your decision to hit or stand knowing only the 1st card of the dealer. In your typical standard BJ game the 2nd card of the dealer would be pulled face down from the shoe before 1st base decided whether to hit/stand/double down/whatever.
The only difference in your kind of game is, that the dealer gets a later card from the shoe, but the card is still completely random and shouldn't affect basic strategy in my opinion, since you have the same data available (your cards, the dealer's first card and maybe the other player's cards and the current count). At which point the dealer pulls his 2nd card out of the deck doesn't affect anything since that decision isn't influenced by the count or anything, but fixed for both types of game.

Soriano12 · Jun 17, 2012

After re-thinking:
No hole card would mean, no late surrender. So that costs you some value...

Soriano12 · Jun 17, 2012

And it might affect your decision on when to split/double down in case you also lose your additional stakes to a dealer's blackjack. So it depends on the specific table/casino rules.

Soriano12 · Jun 17, 2012

In the "classic" game you would make your decision to hit/stand/double down/whatever after the dealer checked for a BJ. So if your hand is still "live", you can't lose your additional hands to a dealer's blackjack. Therefore f.e. you would double down on a 5/6 (=11) vs a dealer's 10 or Ace.
In "your" version I think it would be wrong to double down on your 11 vs (at least) an Ace, if you were to lose your initial bet + the double down stake in case the dealer pulls a blackjack. But if the rules would state, that in case of a dealer's BJ you only lost your initial bet and your double down stake was returned to you, basic strategy would be the same and you would be told to double against a 10 or A.

festeringZit · Jun 17, 2012

Adjustments from the Wiz of Odds:

I have never seen any tips on blackjack where the dealer is dealt only one card. This seems to be a totally different game than regular blackjack. When you take a hit, you are taking what would be the second card of the dealers hand. A lot of online casinos have this game. Do you have any suggestions as to the best way to play these games? Thank you.
— Darrell from Coos Bay, U.S.

It doesn’t matter which card the dealer takes. What is important is whether the player can lose more than their original wager if the dealer has a blackjack. For example at Starnet casinos if the dealer has a 10 up and the player has an 11 and doubles the dealer can draw and ace afterward for a blackjack and the player will lose both the original bet and the double. To adjust for this European no-peek rule the player should be more conservative about doubling and splitting when the dealer has a potential blackjack. My site has the exact basic strategy to follow for various major brands of online software.

As a dealer from Canada I work at a casino that does not deal the hole card. I have never worked at a casino before this but have played at a lot of them. This is first one here in Canada that I have seen do this. Is this better for the players? Also is there much difference in basic strategy between the two? We use a six-deck shoe and hit on soft 17.
— Jesse from Winnipeg, Manitoba, Canada

I just commented on this in my last newsletter. Two weeks ago I was playing blackjack in Germany where they also do not take a hole card. In this event the player loses the total bet if the dealer gets a blackjack, including the additional money bet after doubling or splitting. Basic strategy changes are to hit 11 against a 10, hit two 8’s against a 10 or ace, and hit two aces against an ace.

http://wizardofodds.com/ask-the-wizard/blackjack/no-peek/

DrunkenHorseplayer · Jun 17, 2012

What position you're sitting at has no effect whatsoever on basic strategy.

shdw01 · Jun 19, 2012

Thanks Zit....that is good to know....lay off (or be cautious) on the double/splits vs the 10 (or A)

shdw01 · Jun 19, 2012

Soriano, I understand what you are saying

but my question is on a certain scenario....particularly 3rd base and holding 16 vs a dealer 7.

whether it is the next card to two cards from now they both have the same probability of being a particular number....but in this case there is a direct relation between the card I could hit and the card that the dealer gets if I stand. If it is a 9, regardless of the odds, I am better off standing right? If I run through all the numbers, it changes basic strategy for me....i must be missing something

shdw01 · Jun 19, 2012

Drunken Horseplayer said:
What position you're sitting at has no effect whatsoever on basic strategy.

in all other forms i would agree....this particular scenario I think there is a difference.

No matter what, the dealer MUST take another card on every hand.

DrunkenHorseplayer · Jun 19, 2012

This type of game is no different; basic strategy dictates that a 16 vs. a dealer 7 is always a hit, regardless of position.

shdw01 · Jun 19, 2012

Drunken Horseplayer said:
This type of game is no different; basic strategy dictates that a 16 vs. a dealer 7 is always a hit, regardless of position.

if a dealer has a 7, they don't always have to hit.

in this game, the dealer HAS to take one card, there is only one card he has.

I think i need someone with an explanation.

don't get me wrong, I hate guys that think 3rd base play makes a diff for the rest of the table. I don't put any credit in that. odds are odds...cards are random. but in this scenario at 3rd base, you know that card IS going to the dealer. unless you take it.

festeringZit · Jun 19, 2012

shdw01 said:
if a dealer has a 7, they don't always have to hit.

in this game, the dealer HAS to take one card, there is only one card he has.

I think i need someone with an explanation.

don't get me wrong, I hate guys that think 3rd base play makes a diff for the rest of the table. I don't put any credit in that. odds are odds...cards are random. but in this scenario at 3rd base, you know that card IS going to the dealer. unless you take it.

Drunken Horseplayer is right. There is *no* situation where the position you're sitting at changes basic strategy.

DrunkenHorseplayer · Jun 19, 2012

It doesn't matter whether the dealer gets their second card at the beginning of the hand, at the end or in the middle; the odds that it's going to be a 10 are one and the same. This doesn't apply if you're counting but it does if you're just using basic strategy.

shdw01 · Jun 20, 2012

zit and drunken horseplayer.....can you humor me for a bit.

let's say you had x-ray vision and could see the next card.....can you divide the 13 different possible situations into 4 categories:

1. Doesn't matter hit or stand

2. Good if I hit

3. Good if I stand

4. Not sure/too much more before i can decide

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