How does Pinnacle make money?

PatsFan1283 · Jun 20, 2012

Had this conversation with a friend last night. They have low juice, very high limits and plenty of options of what to bet. They seem to attract mostly sharp $ and don't discourage people from betting on whatever they want. I know that people have large sums of $ in their Pinny accounts and its basically a temporary loan to the site but with interest rates at historical lows you would even need to get creative to monetize that.

I don't think anyone who is betting 5k on obscure CBB totals is doing so and losing (atleast not for very long until bust or they quit)

Anyone got any opinions on this?

Betallsports · Jun 20, 2012

They have Next to Nothing in Overhead.

steaktartar · Jun 20, 2012

their hold % is one of lowest around but as BAS said next to no over head(offices employees etc).....plus they gamble with certain groups that are successful

PatsFan1283 · Jun 20, 2012

steak tartar said:
their hold % is one of lowest around but as BAS said next to no over head(offices employees etc).....plus they gamble with certain groups that are successful

What do you mean hold % is 1 of the lowest around?

They book nothing but sharp action and let people get down at almost any limits they want.

Murphy8276 · Jun 20, 2012

"sharps" get trapped and lose often just as much as the public.. that is why u cant just bet one way or the other the entire time or its -EV

pinny has the best starting and closing numbers in 90% of their offerings.. the hardest lines to beat.

unlimited betting limits means people will chase martingale style just as often as people will bet with a bankroll like at another book.

no bonuses offered.. trust me this gives a book even more advantage than trying to clear a 12X rollover of 100%.. (this generates smaller deposits, while no bonuses and sharp action/best lines encourages larger bankrolls/deposits).. people will still lose beyond a 50% clip and the book doesnt hand out free bonus money = all but guaranteed profits .. they prove it year in and out

if they get 50% on both sides they make 5-8% juice every time and love it.

there is prolly 100 other reasons.. but basically its the reason why vegas grows every year.. the house always wins.

this isnt a new formula or anything.. they decided to book this way based on years and years of proof and now they have been millionaires + because of it

-murph

gmenknicks · Jun 20, 2012

by not letting me have an account

PatsFan1283 · Jun 20, 2012

Murphy8276 said:
"sharps" get trapped and lose often just as much as the public.. that is why u cant just bet one way or the other the entire time or its -EV

pinny has the best starting and closing numbers in 90% of their offerings.. the hardest lines to beat.

unlimited betting limits means people will chase martingale style just as often as people will bet with a bankroll like at another book.

no bonuses offered.. trust me this gives a book even more advantage than trying to clear a 12X rollover of 100%.. (this generates smaller deposits, while no bonuses and sharp action/best lines encourages larger bankrolls/deposits).. people will still lose beyond a 50% clip and the book doesnt hand out free bonus money = all but guaranteed profits .. they prove it year in and out

if they get 50% on both sides they make 5-8% juice every time and love it.

there is prolly 100 other reasons.. but basically its the reason why vegas grows every year.. the house always wins.

this isnt a new formula or anything.. they decided to book this way based on years and years of proof and now they have been millionaires + because of it

-murph

So basically you are saying the sharps who bet there are vastly overrated and don't make $? Best starting and closing #s is fine but they are only attracting a certain type of clientele and that clientele is one with a reputation for winning. Do you think that rep is overrated? I mean these guys offer -110 on in-game and props, I can't imagine there aren't people who can crush that on the regular.

Also where you get 5-8% juice everytime and love it? They book at -104 on sides/totals, that is a 2.2% house edge.

I dunno, maybe sharps are just overrated?

smokeabowl · Jun 20, 2012

Murphy8276 said:
"sharps" get trapped and lose often just as much as the public.. that is why u cant just bet one way or the other the entire time or its -EV

pinny has the best starting and closing numbers in 90% of their offerings.. the hardest lines to beat.

unlimited betting limits means people will chase martingale style just as often as people will bet with a bankroll like at another book.

no bonuses offered.. trust me this gives a book even more advantage than trying to clear a 12X rollover of 100%.. (this generates smaller deposits, while no bonuses and sharp action/best lines encourages larger bankrolls/deposits).. people will still lose beyond a 50% clip and the book doesnt hand out free bonus money = all but guaranteed profits .. they prove it year in and out

if they get 50% on both sides they make 5-8% juice every time and love it.

there is prolly 100 other reasons.. but basically its the reason why vegas grows every year.. the house always wins.

this isnt a new formula or anything.. they decided to book this way based on years and years of proof and now they have been millionaires + because of it

-murph

How do they possibly make 5-8% with 50/50 action when they offer 1.5-2% vig on everything? They make a boatload of money but it isn't by holding 5-8%. It's by holding 1-2% with a boatload of volume.

PatsFan1283 · Jun 20, 2012

smoke a bowl said:
How do they possibly make 5-8% with 50/50 action when they offer 1.5-2% vig on everything? They make a boatload of money but it isn't by holding 5-8%. It's by holding 1-2% with a boatload of volume.

What I said....I know a 2-3% edge constantly can really add up but it does seem like the best bettors in the world (and the best do bet at Pinnacle I thought?) can overcome that.

Also, anyone got any opinion on how they use their $ to work for them? They must have tons of money in deposits just sitting there, wouldn't surprise me if they had elite finance guys managing it for them I suppose?

Its an interesting case study since their book is so much different than your average one.

MattyMatt · Jun 20, 2012

gmenknicks said:
by not letting me have an account

I concur.

smokeabowl · Jun 20, 2012

PatsFan1283 said:
What I said....I know a 2-3% edge constantly can really add up but it does seem like the best bettors in the world (and the best do bet at Pinnacle I thought?) can overcome that.

Also, anyone got any opinion on how they use their $ to work for them? They must have tons of money in deposits just sitting there, wouldn't surprise me if they had elite finance guys managing it for them I suppose?

Its an interesting case study since their book is so much different than your average one.

I think the answer to your question is that they get a ton of square money as well. This place gets volume beyond belief. Easily more volume than all Vegas casinos combined (including the M for all you sharpies).

PatsFan1283 · Jun 20, 2012

smoke a bowl said:
I think the answer to your question is that they get a ton of square money as well. This place gets volume beyond belief. Easily more volume than all Vegas casinos combined (including the M for all you sharpies).

You think so? I mean even if they do get a lot of square money, its not like squares are sitting around betting 20k per game, 30k per game. 10k on in-games, 1k on props.

Squares are betting 1-500 a game. Unless they got high roller squares? High roller squares don't strike me as the type that bet on the internet and are more a Vegas, brick and mortar crowd (atleast not for very long)

Akillies · Jun 20, 2012

they make $ the old fashioned way: they gamble

PatsFan1283 · Jun 20, 2012

Akillies said:
they make $ the old fashioned way: they gamble

Elaborate? I know the rumor was they used to run around Vegas betting their leans.

smokeabowl · Jun 20, 2012

PatsFan1283 said:
You think so? I mean even if they do get a lot of square money, its not like squares are sitting around betting 20k per game, 30k per game. 10k on in-games, 1k on props.

Squares are betting 1-500 a game. Unless they got high roller squares? High roller squares don't strike me as the type that bet on the internet and are more a Vegas, brick and mortar crowd (atleast not for very long)

They get an enormous amount of the 1-500 square bettors but I think you would be surprised at how much 2-50k action they get from whales with no clue. Just think about all the whales that keep these casinos going by playing table games. They obviously aren't sharp because if they were they wouldn't be playing games that have absolutely no way of winning long term w/o some form of cheating.

PatsFan1283 · Jun 20, 2012

smoke a bowl said:
They get an enormous amount of the 1-500 square bettors but I think you would be surprised at how much 2-50k action they get from whales with no clue. Just think about all the whales that keep these casinos going by playing table games. They obviously aren't sharp because if they were they wouldn't be playing games that have absolutely no way of winning long term w/o some form of cheating.

I guess I would, I just didn't think there were THAT many people out there betting 10k+ on games and losing (probably some huge degens who do it with a local since they could never post like 50-100k w Pinny) Whales betting in Vegas while hanging out there is a lot different to me than Whales on pinny.

I dunno, if you are sharp and can pick your spots with no limits, seems like that would be a major disadvantage to Pinny.

Do you think sharps are overrated?

smokeabowl · Jun 20, 2012

PatsFan1283 said:
I guess I would, I just didn't think there were THAT many people out there betting 10k+ on games and losing (probably some huge degens who do it with a local since they could never post like 50-100k w Pinny) Whales betting in Vegas while hanging out there is a lot different to me than Whales on pinny.

I dunno, if you are sharp and can pick your spots with no limits, seems like that would be a major disadvantage to Pinny.

Do you think sharps are overrated?

I don't think true sharps are overrated however I do think that over 90% of the people labeled as sharps are not so.

PatsFan1283 · Jun 20, 2012

smoke a bowl said:
I don't think true sharps are overrated however I do think that over 90% of the people labeled as sharps are not so.

Like what types of sharps? touts? When I listen to Millman's podcast and he talks about sharps and then cites like yards per play as a major stat they look at, its like wow that is such revolutionary stuff.

So I think even the analytically inclined crowd, a lot of those sharps may not be as sharp as people think. I would be speaking out of my ass on that a little though as I don't know that subject too well..

GoForBroke · Jun 20, 2012

smoke a bowl said:
I don't think true sharps are overrated however I do think that over 90% of the people labeled as sharps are not so.

That pretty much sums it up.

smokeabowl · Jun 20, 2012

PatsFan1283 said:
Like what types of sharps? touts? When I listen to Millman's podcast and he talks about sharps and then cites like yards per play as a major stat they look at, its like wow that is such revolutionary stuff.

So I think even the analytically inclined crowd, a lot of those sharps may not be as sharp as people think. I would be speaking out of my ass on that a little though as I don't know that subject too well..

No such thing as a sharp tout. There are good marketing touts, but none are actually winning gamblers or else they wouldn't waste their time touting. It is a lot more fun,more profitable and gratifying to make winning bets than it is to have to sell something. My definition of a true sharp is someone who makes bets that he is convinced are +EV and be right about that fact 90+% of the time. Don't confuse that with winning 90% of bets made because that is not what I'm saying. Just saying that over 90% of the time the bet had positive expectation (obv very hard to prove or quantify).