fact checking the fact checkers

Willie99 · Aug 30, 2012

not even fact checking means anything anymore, it's become just another vehicle for liberals to use as they abuse the facts

What Paul Ryan said about the GM plant in MO was 100% accurate, despite the liberals kicking and screaming that the plane was closed under Bush.

In Oct of 2008, while campaigning in Janesville MO, Obama said this plane would remain open with Govt intervention. He said he would retool the plant and keep people working here by building fuel efficient cars.

In Oct of 2008, GM started receiving it's Govt bailout, which Obama supported.

In Dec of 2008, GM stopped production of SUV's at the aforementioned plant. But continued to produce other vehicles.

In Jan 2009, Obama takes office

Within 3 weeks, Obama gets his nearly trillion dollar stimulus bill passed. the plant was still open.

In April of 2009, the plant was closed and remains closed to this day.

So Government assistance did not save the plant, and Obama never retooled the plant.

Thus, Obama was wrong, yet again.

Ryan never blamed Obama, just pointed out how wrong he was.

the liberal fact checkers are a bunch of liars

Willie99 · Aug 30, 2012

next, they're kicking and screaming about Ryan's accusation that Obama cut medicare spending by $ 716 billion. How can they dispute this?

well Obama says the $ 716 billion will not impact services seniors receive, he's cutting payments to medical professionals and eliminating fraud (always love that eliminating fraud line. Although promised thousand a times each year, it never happened once)

an estimated 30 to 60 percent of doctors already won't take new medicare patients. If you cut the payments to doctors, will that increase or decrease the number of doctors that accept medicare?

of course fewer doctors will accept medicare under Obamacare, and of course that's going to impact the healthcare services seniors receive. Can anybody really not see this?

Ryan right, fact checkers wrong again

rolltide · Aug 30, 2012

who's fact checking the fact checker's fact checkers?

DeathEatsaCracker · Aug 30, 2012

Here's a Fox News fact check:

Paul Ryan’s speech in 3 words

1. Dazzling

At least a quarter of Americans still don’t know who Paul Ryan is, and only about half who know and have an opinion of him view him favorably.

So, Ryan’s primary job tonight was to introduce himself and make himself seem likeable, and he did that well. The personal parts of the speech were very personally delivered, especially the touching parts where Ryan talked about his father and mother and their roles in his life. And at the end of the speech, when Ryan cheered the crowd to its feet, he showed an energy and enthusiasm that’s what voters want in leaders and what Republicans have been desperately lacking in this campaign.

To anyone watching Ryan’s speech who hasn’t been paying much attention to the ins and outs and accusations of the campaign, I suspect Ryan came across as a smart, passionate and all-around nice guy — the sort of guy you can imagine having a friendly chat with while watching your kids play soccer together. And for a lot of voters, what matters isn’t what candidates have done or what they promise to do —it’s personality. On this measure, Mitt Romney has been catastrophically struggling and with his speech, Ryan humanized himself and presumably by extension, the top of the ticket.

2. Deceiving

On the other hand, to anyone paying the slightest bit of attention to facts, Ryan’s speech was an apparent attempt to set the world record for the greatest number of blatant lies and misrepresentations slipped into a single political speech. On this measure, while it was Romney who ran the Olympics, Ryan earned the gold.

The good news is that the Romney-Ryan campaign has likely created dozens of new jobs among the legions of additional fact checkers that media outlets are rushing to hire to sift through the mountain of cow dung that flowed from Ryan’s mouth. Said fact checkers have already condemned certain arguments that Ryan still irresponsibly repeated.

Fact: While Ryan tried to pin the downgrade of the United States’ credit rating on spending under President Obama, the credit rating was actually downgraded because Republicans threatened not to raise the debt ceiling.

Fact: While Ryan blamed President Obama for the shut down of a GM plant in Janesville, Wisconsin, the plant was actually closed under President George W. Bush. Ryan actually asked for federal spending to save the plant, while Romney has criticized the auto industry bailout that President Obama ultimately enacted to prevent other plants from closing.

Fact: Though Ryan insisted that President Obama wants to give all the credit for private sector success to government, that isn't what the president said. Period.

Fact: Though Paul Ryan accused President Obama of taking $716 billion out of Medicare, the fact is that that amount was savings in Medicare reimbursement rates (which, incidentally, save Medicare recipients out-of-pocket costs, too) and Ryan himself embraced these savings in his budget plan.

Elections should be about competing based on your record in the past and your vision for the future, not competing to see who can get away with the most lies and distortions without voters noticing or bother to care. Both parties should hold themselves to that standard. Republicans should be ashamed that there was even one misrepresentation in Ryan’s speech but sadly, there were many.

3. Distracting

And then there’s what Ryan didn’t talk about.

Ryan didn’t mention his extremist stance on banning all abortions with no exception for rape or incest, a stance that is out of touch with 75% of American voters.

Ryan didn’t mention his previous plan to hand over Social Security to Wall Street.

Ryan didn’t mention his numerous votes to raise spending and balloon the deficit when George W. Bush was president.

Ryan didn’t mention how his budget would eviscerate programs that help the poor and raise taxes on 95% of Americans in order to cut taxes for millionaires and billionaires even further and increase — yes, increase —the deficit.

These aspects of Ryan’s resume and ideology are sticky to say the least. He would have been wise to tackle them head on and try and explain them away in his first real introduction to voters. But instead of Ryan airing his own dirty laundry, Democrats will get the chance.

At the end of his speech, Ryan quoted his dad, who used to say to him, “"Son. You have a choice: You can be part of the problem, or you can be part of the solution."

Ryan may have helped solve some of the likeability problems facing Romney, but ultimately by trying to deceive voters about basic facts and trying to distract voters from his own record, Ryan’s speech caused a much larger problem for himself and his running mate.

http://www.foxnews.com/opinion/2012/08/30/paul-ryans-speech-in-three-words/#ixzz251rvLkSe

DeathEatsaCracker · Aug 30, 2012

Willie99 said:
not even fact checking means anything anymore, it's become just another vehicle for liberals to use as they abuse the facts

What Paul Ryan said about the GM plant in MO was 100% accurate, despite the liberals kicking and screaming that the plane was closed under Bush.

In Oct of 2008, while campaigning in Janesville MO, Obama said this plane would remain open with Govt intervention. He said he would retool the plant and keep people working here by building fuel efficient cars.

In Oct of 2008, GM started receiving it's Govt bailout, which Obama supported.

In Dec of 2008, GM stopped production of SUV's at the aforementioned plant. But continued to produce other vehicles.

In Jan 2009, Obama takes office

Within 3 weeks, Obama gets his nearly trillion dollar stimulus bill passed. the plant was still open.

In April of 2009, the plant was closed and remains closed to this day.

So Government assistance did not save the plant, and Obama never retooled the plant.

Thus, Obama was wrong, yet again.

Ryan never blamed Obama, just pointed out how wrong he was.

the liberal fact checkers are a bunch of liars

The plant closed in late 2008. Not only are you wrong, but you left out the part about Paul Ryan asking for Federal funds to keep it open.

schiff · Aug 30, 2012

Death Eats a Cracker said:
Here's a Fox News fact check:

Paul Ryan’s speech in 3 words

1. Dazzling

At least a quarter of Americans still don’t know who Paul Ryan is, and only about half who know and have an opinion of him view him favorably.

So, Ryan’s primary job tonight was to introduce himself and make himself seem likeable, and he did that well. The personal parts of the speech were very personally delivered, especially the touching parts where Ryan talked about his father and mother and their roles in his life. And at the end of the speech, when Ryan cheered the crowd to its feet, he showed an energy and enthusiasm that’s what voters want in leaders and what Republicans have been desperately lacking in this campaign.

To anyone watching Ryan’s speech who hasn’t been paying much attention to the ins and outs and accusations of the campaign, I suspect Ryan came across as a smart, passionate and all-around nice guy — the sort of guy you can imagine having a friendly chat with while watching your kids play soccer together. And for a lot of voters, what matters isn’t what candidates have done or what they promise to do —it’s personality. On this measure, Mitt Romney has been catastrophically struggling and with his speech, Ryan humanized himself and presumably by extension, the top of the ticket.

2. Deceiving

On the other hand, to anyone paying the slightest bit of attention to facts, Ryan’s speech was an apparent attempt to set the world record for the greatest number of blatant lies and misrepresentations slipped into a single political speech. On this measure, while it was Romney who ran the Olympics, Ryan earned the gold.

The good news is that the Romney-Ryan campaign has likely created dozens of new jobs among the legions of additional fact checkers that media outlets are rushing to hire to sift through the mountain of cow dung that flowed from Ryan’s mouth. Said fact checkers have already condemned certain arguments that Ryan still irresponsibly repeated.

Fact: While Ryan tried to pin the downgrade of the United States’ credit rating on spending under President Obama, the credit rating was actually downgraded because Republicans threatened not to raise the debt ceiling.

Fact: While Ryan blamed President Obama for the shut down of a GM plant in Janesville, Wisconsin, the plant was actually closed under President George W. Bush. Ryan actually asked for federal spending to save the plant, while Romney has criticized the auto industry bailout that President Obama ultimately enacted to prevent other plants from closing.

Fact: Though Ryan insisted that President Obama wants to give all the credit for private sector success to government, that isn't what the president said. Period.

Fact: Though Paul Ryan accused President Obama of taking $716 billion out of Medicare, the fact is that that amount was savings in Medicare reimbursement rates (which, incidentally, save Medicare recipients out-of-pocket costs, too) and Ryan himself embraced these savings in his budget plan.

Elections should be about competing based on your record in the past and your vision for the future, not competing to see who can get away with the most lies and distortions without voters noticing or bother to care. Both parties should hold themselves to that standard. Republicans should be ashamed that there was even one misrepresentation in Ryan’s speech but sadly, there were many.

3. Distracting

And then there’s what Ryan didn’t talk about.

Ryan didn’t mention his extremist stance on banning all abortions with no exception for rape or incest, a stance that is out of touch with 75% of American voters.

Ryan didn’t mention his previous plan to hand over Social Security to Wall Street.

Ryan didn’t mention his numerous votes to raise spending and balloon the deficit when George W. Bush was president.

Ryan didn’t mention how his budget would eviscerate programs that help the poor and raise taxes on 95% of Americans in order to cut taxes for millionaires and billionaires even further and increase — yes, increase —the deficit.

These aspects of Ryan’s resume and ideology are sticky to say the least. He would have been wise to tackle them head on and try and explain them away in his first real introduction to voters. But instead of Ryan airing his own dirty laundry, Democrats will get the chance.

At the end of his speech, Ryan quoted his dad, who used to say to him, “"Son. You have a choice: You can be part of the problem, or you can be part of the solution."

Ryan may have helped solve some of the likeability problems facing Romney, but ultimately by trying to deceive voters about basic facts and trying to distract voters from his own record, Ryan’s speech caused a much larger problem for himself and his running mate.

http://www.foxnews.com/opinion/2012/08/30/paul-ryans-speech-in-three-words/#ixzz251rvLkSe

You do realize sally Kohn wrote that piece, don't you? You do realize who Sally Konh is, don't you? She's a dyke and S is a political commentator, community organizer, and founder and chief education officer of the Movement Vision Lab, a grassroots think tank. No bias there.

schiff · Aug 30, 2012

Death Eats a Cracker said:
The plant closed in late 2008. Not only are you wrong, but you left out the part about Paul Ryan asking for Federal funds to keep it open.

He isnt wrong. You are as usual. Dumbass.

http://hotair.com/archives/2012/08/30/fact-checking-the-factcheckers-on-ryans-speech/?preview=true
Ryan acknowledged that the plant had already been slated for shutdown in 2008. That was his point. People voted for him because they thought Obama represented hope to get the plant back in operation. In fact, that had been known since at least February 2008, when Obama came to Janesville to speak, and specifically addressed the plant closure in his remarks, delivered at the plant itself — and promised to keep it and other plants like it open “for the next hundred years” (emphasis mine):

It was nearly a century ago that the first tractor rolled off the assembly line at this plant. The achievement didn’t just create a product to sell or profits for General Motors. It led to a shared prosperity enjoyed by all of Janesville. Homes and businesses began to sprout up along Milwaukee and Main Streets. Jobs were plentiful, with wages that could raise a family and benefits you could count on.
Prosperity hasn’t always come easily. The plant shut down for a period during the height of the Depression, and major shifts in production have been required to meet the changing times. Tractors became automobiles. Automobiles became artillery shells. SUVs are becoming hybrids as we speak, and the cost of transition has always been greatest for the workers and their families.
But through hard times and good, great challenge and great change, the promise of Janesville has been the promise of America – that our prosperity can and must be the tide that lifts every boat; that we rise or fall as one nation; that our economy is strongest when our middle-class grows and opportunity is spread as widely as possible. And when it’s not – when opportunity is uneven or unequal – it is our responsibility to restore balance, and fairness, and keep that promise alive for the next generation. That is the responsibility we face right now, and that is the responsibility I intend to meet as President of the United States. …
Those are the steps we can take to ease the cost crisis facing working families. But we still need to make sure that families are working. We need to maintain our competitive edge in a global by ensuring that plants like this one stay open for another hundred years, and shuttered factories re-open as new industries that promise new jobs. And we need to put more Americans to work doing jobs that need to be done right here in America.

That’s the promise that Barack Obama failed to deliver — even when the government took ownership of GM. Ryan had it exactly right, and the fact checkers have made a mockery of their own profession by stepping all over their own biases to refute Ryan.

Michelangelo · Aug 30, 2012

"Fox news fact check"

That's an "opinion" piece by liberal writer Sally Kohn.

Your version of truth is, as always, erroneously biased.

festeringZit · Aug 30, 2012

Willie99 · Aug 30, 2012

Death Eats a Cracker said:
The plant closed in late 2008. Not only are you wrong, but you left out the part about Paul Ryan asking for Federal funds to keep it open.

http://www.cnn.com/2012/08/30/politics/pol-fact-check-ryan-gm/index.html

plant closed April 2009

April 23, 2009: The plant's medium-duty assembly line, which produced an Isuzu line, closes, ending vehicle production at the plant and resulting in the loss of 57 production jobs, according to the Gazette.
GM then put the plant on standby, meaning it could reactivate the facility if it decides it needs to ramp up production.
Now, compare Ryan's Wednesday night statement with the one he gave on August 16. On Wednesday, Ryan said nothing of Obama making a promise, but rather quoted him.
The quote is truncated (in Ryan's prepared remarks released to the media, an ellipsis replaces the missing words, "give you the assistance you need to re-tool and make this transition") but essentially is correct.
The only thing Ryan appears to have gotten technically wrong in Wednesday's version was saying that the plant didn't last another year. It did last another year -- more like 14 months -- if the Isuzu line and its 57 workers count.

and he didn't blame Obama for the closure, just pointed out he was wrong

CNN agrees with me, although I know how much y'all hate it when we quote Obama

Willie99 · Aug 30, 2012

Death Eats a Cracker said:
The plant closed in late 2008. Not only are you wrong, but you left out the part about Paul Ryan asking for Federal funds to keep it open.

so I'm right about the plant closing in 2009 (go figure, eh?)

and Ryan never received any money for the plant, nor did Obama retool the plant

With Obama's plans in place he said "I believe the plant will remain open another 100 years"

I guess he was just making an empty campaign promise

and Ryan didn't lie

Willie99 · Aug 30, 2012

festeringZit said:

baddabing

Willie99 · Aug 30, 2012

rolltide said:
who's fact checking the fact checker's fact checkers?

you

Willie99 · Aug 30, 2012

Let's start with what Obama said and see if any reasonable human being who isn't simply shilling for the President could possibly reach the same conclusion as Politifact:

"I know that General Motors received some bad news yesterday, and I know how hard your Governor has fought to keep jobs in this plant. But I also know how much progress you’ve made – how many hybrids and fuel-efficient vehicles you’re churning out. And I believe that if our government is there to support you, and give you the assistance you need to re-tool and make this transition, that this plant will be here for another hundred years. The question is not whether a clean energy economy is in our future, it’s where it will thrive. I want it to thrive right here in the United States of America; right here in Wisconsin; and that’s the future I’ll fight for as your President."

So, President Obama went to the Janesville GM plant and told them that if the policies he supports were enacted, the plant would "be here for another hundred years". If a presidential candidate comes to your plant and tells you the execution of his policies will keep it open for another hundred years that's a promise or a guarentee or whatever you want. However, it most certainly isn't meaningless as Politifact would like us all to believe.

And, of course, President Obama's policies were enacted but the Janesville GM plant didn't even survive through all of 2009. Instead, it shut down on April 23rd 2009. Which brings me to the next point. Politifact is just plain lying about when the Jainsville plant closed.

-------------------------------

them there exact quotes can be so confusing

can anyone tell me what he really meant?

DeathEatsaCracker · Aug 30, 2012

From Wikipedia:

2008

Fuel prices, the related slow sales of SUVs, and the economy affected the Janesville plant. In April 2008, GM announced that the plant would cut back full-time production to a single shift. Combined with an ongoing employee buy-out program, layoffs totaled around 750 jobs in July 2008.[9]

During GM's 2008 annual shareholder meeting on June 3, 2008, CEO Rick Wagoner announced that the Janesville assembly plant would close by 2010, along with three other GM factories, and could close sooner if the market dictated.[10] The cutbacks announced, along with other changes, were expected to save the North American division $1 billion per year starting in 2010.[11]

GM extended its annual summer shutdown an additional two weeks and planned another ten weeks of shutdown for the remainder of 2008 because of excess inventories of SUVs made at the plant.[12]

On February 13, 2008, Democratic Presidential Candidate Barack Obama stated, "This can be America’s future. I know that General Motors received some bad news yesterday, and I know how hard your Governor has fought to keep jobs in this plant. But I also know how much progress you’ve made – how many hybrids and fuel-efficient vehicles you’re churning out. And I believe that if our government is there to support you, and give you the assistance you need to re-tool and make this transition, that this plant will be here for another hundred years. The question is not whether a clean energy economy is in our future, it’s where it will thrive. I want it to thrive right here in the United States of America; right here in Wisconsin; and that’s the future I’ll fight for as your President."

In June 2008, a study by Steven Deller, a University of Wisconsin-Extension professor, indicated that the plant's closure could result in a ripple effect for the county. Based on a number of estimates and 2007 employment data, his worst case scenario was the loss of 9,000 jobs and nearly half a billion dollars of labor income in Rock County.[13]

In October 2008, GM announced Janesville Assembly would be largely idled December 23, 2008 when production of SUVs would end.[14]

You're grasping for straws here. It was a skeleton crew finishing up a contract, and then a dedicated shut down crew working after Obama was sworn in. The decision was already made.

DeathEatsaCracker · Aug 30, 2012

Willie99 said:
so I'm right about the plant closing in 2009 (go figure, eh?)

and Ryan never received any money for the plant, nor did Obama retool the plant

With Obama's plans in place he said "I believe the plant will remain open another 100 years"

I guess he was just making an empty campaign promise

and Ryan didn't lie

I didn't say that Ryan received a bailout for the plant, I said that he asked, which is fact. Another example of republicans talking out of both sides of their mouth.

http://articles.latimes.com/2012/aug/18/nation/la-na-ryan-gm-20120818

Dave007inVegas · Aug 30, 2012

A little bit more on the unbiased Sally Kohn.

The author of the article, Sally Kohn was a was Senior Campaign Strategist with the Center for Community Change, where she served as co-Director. She also previously served as Executive Director of the Third Wave Foundation. Kohn held a program fellowship at the Ford Foundation, helping to manage more than $15 million in annual grants. She was also a distinguished Vaid Fellow at the National Gay and Lesbian Task Force Policy Institute. Kohn has consulted at organizations such as the Urban Justice Center. She was also a strategic adviser to the Social Justice Infrastructure Funders. I.E. Community Organizer.

She has appeared on MSNBC shows The Ed Show and The Last Word with Lawrence O'Donnell.[2] Kohn has also published op-eds for outlets including Fox News,[3] The Washington Post, The Nation, The Christian Science Monitor, and USA Today. She is also a contributor to The Huffington Post. She currently serves as a Fox News Channel contributor.

Kohn met her partner, Sarah Hansen, at the World Social Forum in Porto Alegre, Brazil, in 2003. Hansen works as an activist and consultant, and is the former Executive Director of the Environmental Grantmakers Association. They have a 3 year old girl, Willa Eliza Hansen-Kohn.

Who was it that said Fox News isn’t fair and balance?

DeathEatsaCracker · Aug 30, 2012

Attacking the source is a typical response when you've got nothing else to dispute the article with.

schiff · Aug 30, 2012

Death Eats a Cracker said:
Attacking the source is a typical response when you've got nothing else to dispute the article with.

We are attacking your stupid ass for posting the biased dyke in the first place. Fucking idiot

bodyforlife · Aug 30, 2012

The Media's 'Fact Check' Smokescreen

Journalism: If media "fact checkers" are just impartial guardians of the truth, how come they got their own facts wrong about Paul Ryan's speech, and did so in a way that helped President Obama's re-election effort?

Case in point was the rush of "fact check" stories claiming Ryan misled when he talked about a shuttered auto plant in his home state.

Washington Post fact-checker Glenn Kessler posted a piece — "Ryan misleads on GM plant closing in hometown" — saying Ryan "appeared to suggest" that Obama was responsible for the closure of a GM plant in Janesville, Wis.

"That's not true," Kessler said. "The plant was closed in December 2008, before Obama was sworn in."

What's not true are Kessler's "facts." Ryan didn't suggest Obama was responsible for shuttering the plant. Instead, he correctly noted that Obama promised during the campaign that the troubled plant "will be here for another hundred years" if his policies were enacted.

Also, the plant didn't close in December 2008. It was still producing cars until April 2009.

An AP "fact check" also claimed that "the plant halted production in December 2008" even though the AP itself reported in April 2009 that the plant was only then "closing for good."

CNN's John King made the same claim about that plant closure. But when CNN looked more carefully at the evidence, it — to its credit — concluded that what Ryan said was "true."

Media fact-checkers also complained about Ryan's charge that Obama is cutting $716 billion from Medicare to fund ObamaCare. Not true, they said. Medicare's growth is just being slowed.

But Obama achieves that slower growth by making real cuts in provider payments. And in any case, the media always and everywhere call a reduction in the rate of federal spending growth a "cut." So why suddenly charge Ryan with being misleading for using that same term?

In any case, Obama himself admitted that he's doing what Ryan says. In a November 2009 interview with ABC News, reporter Jake Tapper said to Obama that "one-third of the funding comes from cuts to Medicare," to which Obama's response was: "Right."

The rest of Ryan's alleged factual errors aren't errors at all; it's just that the media didn't like how he said it. But since when is it a fact-checker's job to decide how a politician should construct his arguments?

This isn't to say that journalists shouldn't check facts. Of course they should.

The problem is that the mainstream press is now abusing the "fact check" label, using it to more aggressively push a liberal agenda without feeling the need to provide any balance whatsoever. And, as the reaction to the Ryan speech shows, they are now blatantly using it to provide air support for Obama.

Is it any wonder that soon after Ryan's speech ended, the Obama campaign rushed out an ad using the media's "fact check" stories as its source?

fact checking the fact checkers

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