UFC 159 - Can Chael Sonnen Pull Off The Ultimate Upset Against Jon Jones?

HacheMan · Apr 24, 2013

5dimes

<SMALL>UFC 159 - Light Heavyweight 5 rounds - Prudential Center - Newark, New Jersey - PPV</SMALL>
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<SMALL>UFC 159 - Middleweight 3 rounds - Prudential Center - Newark, New Jersey - PPV</SMALL>
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11:30PM	1102 Michael Bisping	<INPUT id=editx maxLength=5 size=4 name=M2_1> -170	<INPUT id=editx maxLength=5 size=4 name=L2_1> u2½ +160
<SMALL>UFC 159 - Heavyweight 3 rounds - Prudential Center - Newark, New Jersey - PPV</SMALL>
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11:00PM	1202 Cheick Kongo	<INPUT id=editx maxLength=5 size=4 name=M2_2> +200	<INPUT id=editx maxLength=5 size=4 name=L2_2> u1½ +120
<SMALL>UFC 159 - Light Heavyweight 3 rounds - Prudential Center - Newark, New Jersey - PPV</SMALL>
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10:30PM	1302 Phil Davis	<INPUT id=editx maxLength=5 size=4 name=M2_3> -335	<INPUT id=editx maxLength=5 size=4 name=L2_3> u2½ +175
<SMALL>UFC 159 - Lightweight 3 rounds - Prudential Center - Newark, New Jersey - PPV</SMALL>
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<SMALL>UFC 159 - Lightweight 3 rounds - Prudential Center - Newark, New Jersey - FX</SMALL>
Sat 4/27	1501 Yancy Medeiros	<INPUT id=editx maxLength=5 size=4 name=M1_5> +250	<INPUT id=editx maxLength=5 size=4 name=L1_5> o2½ +125
9:30PM	1502 Rustam Khabilov	<INPUT id=editx maxLength=5 size=4 name=M2_5> -300	<INPUT id=editx maxLength=5 size=4 name=L2_5> u2½ -155
<SMALL>UFC 159 - Light Heavyweight 3 rounds - Prudential Center - Newark, New Jersey - FX</SMALL>
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9:00PM	1602 Gian Villante	<INPUT id=editx maxLength=5 size=4 name=M2_6> +165	<INPUT id=editx maxLength=5 size=4 name=L2_6> u2½ +115
<SMALL>UFC 159 - Bantamweight 3 rounds - Prudential Center - Newark, New Jersey - FX</SMALL>
Sat 4/27	1701 Sheila Gaff	<INPUT id=editx maxLength=5 size=4 name=M1_7> +525	<INPUT id=editx maxLength=5 size=4 name=L1_7> o2½ +125
8:30PM	1702 Sara McMann	<INPUT id=editx maxLength=5 size=4 name=M2_7> -750	<INPUT id=editx maxLength=5 size=4 name=L2_7> u2½ -155
<SMALL>UFC 159 - Bantamweight 3 rounds - Prudential Center - Newark, New Jersey - FX </SMALL>
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<SMALL>UFC 159 - Featherweight 3 rounds - Prudential Center - Newark, New Jersey - Facebook</SMALL>
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7:30PM	1902 Cody McKenzie	<INPUT id=editx maxLength=5 size=4 name=M2_9> +155	<INPUT id=editx maxLength=5 size=4 name=L2_9> u1½ +115
<SMALL>UFC 159 - Welterweight 3 rounds - Prudential Center - Newark, New Jersey - Facebook</SMALL>
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7:00PM	2002 James Head	<INPUT id=editx maxLength=5 size=4 name=M2_10> -155	<INPUT id=editx maxLength=5 size=4 name=L2_10> u2½ +120
<SMALL>UFC 159 - Featherweight 3 rounds - Prudential Center - Newark, New Jersey - Facebook </SMALL>
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6:30PM	2102 Steven Siler	<INPUT id=editx maxLength=5 size=4 name=M2_11> -125	<INPUT id=editx maxLength=5 size=4 name=L2_11> u2½ +130

Enfuego · Apr 24, 2013

Guys, I like watching the UFC but don't pay attention that much. I heard J. Coachmen say J. Jones is perhaps the greatest UFC fighter ever?

Is he not out of his mind? No GSP?

What about R. Gracie?

I don't know, just asking.

shdw01 · Apr 24, 2013

J Jones is badass

celticGreen+ · Apr 24, 2013

Hard to put Jones above Silva (or GSP).

PatsFan1283 · Apr 24, 2013

celticGreen said:
Hard to put Jones above Silva (or GSP).

Not yet but he will likely surpass GSP pretty easily.

This is all subjective though, who is the greatest in a fast evolving sport a ever-changing question.

He already has as many good wins as GSP as champ in way fewer fights, although beating Sonnen will prove nothing

BTW Nelson/Kongo probably 1 of the few times in life a fat white guy gonna be favored in a fight over a jacked black dude.

celticGreen+ · Apr 24, 2013

PatsFan1283 said:
Not yet but he will likely surpass GSP pretty easily.

...

Oh I agree - I just mean right now, GSP has been far more dominant (at least as far as wins go) than Jones.

Enfuego · Apr 24, 2013

Do people forget Royce Gracie and his domination without weight classes?

celticGreen+ · Apr 24, 2013

Enfuego said:
Do people forget Royce Gracie and his domination without weight classes?

Hard to compare though... The sport has changed so much. Last time we saw Royce, Matt Hughes was handing him his ass.

PatsFan1283 · Apr 24, 2013

Enfuego said:
Do people forget Royce Gracie and his domination without weight classes?

Yeah he dominated bigger men when the sport was in its infancy though, not taking anything away from him but the sport has come a long way in 20 years . Simply put, the skill level at an elite level (like UFC) nobody that much smaller could dominate bigger men now, the skill gap has just narrowed too much. Back when he dominated UFC 1-3 the guys he was beating probably didn't even know what ju-jitsu was.

shdw01 · Apr 24, 2013

Royce Gracie would not dominate today's UFC.

Unless someone figures out Jones (kinda like Machida) he is on his way to being the greatest (or at least seriously in the conversatioN)

Enfuego · Apr 24, 2013

celticGreen said:
Hard to compare though... The sport has changed so much. Last time we saw Royce, Matt Hughes was handing him his ass.

He was older when fighting Hughes. A young Gracie in his prime would've dominated MH.

Enfuego · Apr 24, 2013

PatsFan1283 said:
Yeah he dominated bigger men when the sport was in its infancy though, not taking anything away from him but the sport has come a long way in 20 years . Simply put, the skill level at an elite level (like UFC) nobody that much smaller could dominate bigger men now, the skill gap has just narrowed too much. Back when he dominated UFC 1-3 the guys he was beating probably didn't even know what ju-jitsu was.

True. For sure.

Enfuego · Apr 24, 2013

shdw01 said:
Royce Gracie would not dominate today's UFC.

Unless someone figures out Jones (kinda like Machida) he is on his way to being the greatest (or at least seriously in the conversatioN)

He would certainly hold his own IMO.

celticGreen+ · Apr 24, 2013

Enfuego said:
He was older when fighting Hughes. A young Gracie in his prime would've dominated MH.

Sure, but Hughes himself was getting beat down badly at that point... That's sort of my point, it was a battle of has-beens, and Hughes still dominated.

PatsFan1283 · Apr 24, 2013

Enfuego said:
He was older when fighting Hughes. A young Gracie in his prime would've dominated MH.

Nah this isn't true. Hughes wrestling would allow him to ground and pound Gracie. Nothing against Gracie but the sport just evolved, this is like saying Bill Russell in his prime could compete with Shaq, I mean it is very likely.

He wouldn't be able to hold his own. His skillset was very limited in his day, it is just that nobody else had any clue about ju-jitsu then. Now pretty much all of these guys atleast have some knowledge-base of every skillset, even the ones they aren't good at.

Pretty much none of those guys could hold their own now, just like no NBA players from the 1960's besides maybe Wilt and Russell could.

Enfuego · Apr 24, 2013

PatsFan1283 said:
Nah this isn't true. Hughes wrestling would allow him to ground and pound Gracie. Nothing against Gracie but the sport just evolved, this is like saying Bill Russell in his prime could compete with Shaq, I mean it is very likely.

Gracie preferred the ground and pound. He was the master of the submission from his back.

Would've been great back in the day to see them fight when they were young and dumb.

GoBlue34 · Apr 24, 2013

I think Royce would hold his own but no way be champion. Back then not many could stop a take down and there were zero rules.

At his age, Jon Jones has done more than anyone I can remember and his only loss wasn't even really a loss (DQ for hitting the back of the head). He's actually never come close to losing that I've seen. Would love to see Chael take him down and pound him but don't think he will be strong or fast enough. JJ by kicks, punches, etc but I hope I'm wrong.

I like Belcher + money but I also hate Bisping so not sure if I'm betting with my head or heart.

PatsFan1283 · Apr 24, 2013

shdw01 said:
Royce Gracie would not dominate today's UFC.

Unless someone figures out Jones (kinda like Machida) he is on his way to being the greatest (or at least seriously in the conversatioN)

Cormier-Jones would be sick. Cormier is no joke although his low-risk style vs Mir was pretty boring, he definitely has the size, power that could give Jones problems. I feel like if he can't then Jones might as well just moveup to heavyweight because there is nobody at LHW that can touch him.

CowboyT · Apr 24, 2013

Jones is extremely gifted. He's beat most of the champs from yesteryear and the newest talent quite easily. But the sport is still in its infancy. I'd say it goes 1. Silva 2. Gsp 3. Fedor 4. Jones 5. Wanderlei as the greatest ever, but that's obviously subjective. Royce would be somewhere around #30 for me. Right now, all across the world, kids ages 6 and up are learning mma . The new generation's abilities will far exceed ours. Most Fighters that are in the current scene came up in one discipline (wrestling, boxing, kickboxing, jiu jitsu, judo, sambo or another traditional martial art). In ten years , pro fighters will have been training all disciplines their entire lives.

PatsFan1283 · Apr 24, 2013

Enfuego said:
Gracie preferred the ground and pound. He was the master of the submission from his back.

Would've been great back in the day to see them fight when they were young and dumb.

Yeah but in the early days the guys he beat just walked into subs, guys are way more skilled now. There is a reason no champion out there right now is known for their ju-jitsu over everything else they do, the sport has evolved. The best guys are either wrestlers or strikers now pretty much. If you find yourself on your back in the UFC now, it is not a good spot to be in. A lot of guys have great ju-jitsu and keep themselves from taking any damage on the ground (think Silva vs Sonnen) but not many really do damage from the bottom these days like they could back then.