Donked into on flop; how to handle this

HarryCaray · Jul 14, 2013

Thoughts?

Blind:	$100/ $200
Hand History converter courtesy of pokerhandreplays.com

Table Information

Seat2:	Player 2	($1,907)	Dealer
Seat3:	Player 3	($5,720)	Small Blind
Seat4:	Player 4	($2,563)	Big Blind
Seat8:	Player 8	($875)
Seat9:	Player 9	($2,435)

Seat2:	Player 2	Ante $25
Seat3:	Player 3	Ante $25
Seat4:	Player 4	Ante $25
Seat8:	Player 8	Ante $25
Seat9:	Player 9	Ante $25

Dealt to Player 9

Preflop (Pot:425)

Player 8

FOLD

Player 9

RAISE

$400

Player 2

FOLD

Player 3

FOLD

Player 4

CALL

$200

Flop (Pot: $1,150)

Player 4

BET

$513

What do you put him on here? This guy is pretty LAGgy and overplays the F out of draws. Do you put him on diamonds? If so do you flat or shove and hope he folds and if not gamble?

Personally I put him on ace rag. I'll post the rest of the hand but just wanted some thoughts first.

awmllc2000 · Jul 14, 2013

I'd probably put him on flush draw with the limited info here. Depending on how extremely laggy he could hold just the Q.... I go ahead and shove here.

awmllc2000 · Jul 14, 2013

His range as lag... Could be numerous options here.. He may have flopped bottom 2.... Tough to say with no history. Regardless, I'm ok with getting it in here.

HarryCaray · Jul 14, 2013

awmllc2000 said:
His range as lag... Could be numerous options here.. He may have flopped bottom 2.... Tough to say with no history. Regardless, I'm ok with getting it in here.

OK good we are on the same page. I figured diamonds, KQ, or A rag. I figured if he had diamonds he would call my shove but at least I'm making him pay to draw. If he had KQ obviously I'm happy here. If he has A rag I figured either I could push him off it (doubtful) or at worst we would most likely be chopping.

Anyway he had A rag but his hand actually held unfortunately.

Glad to see I didn't play it horribly. Given the chip stacks I could see a case for letting this one go and picking a better spot. But I just figured if he was holding a big hand like Q10, KJ, AJ, etc he would have checked the flop because I'm surely going to c-bet with that texture whether I connected or not, he has to know that...

Hand continued...

Player 9

ALL-IN

$2,010

Player 4

CALL

$1,497

Turn (Pot: $5,170)

River (Pot: $5,170)

Showdown:

Player 4 SHOWS

Player 9 SHOWS

Player 2	wins the side pot : $0
Player 2	wins the main pot : $5,170

HarryCaray · Jul 14, 2013

What's wild is he snap-called me with that A7 even though I raised PF and then shoved the flop. Interesting he didn't even consider I had something like A 10, AJ...cause that's exactly what I was representing.

HarryCaray · Jul 14, 2013

HarryCaray said:
What's wild is he snap-called me with that A7 even though I raised PF and then shoved the flop. Interesting he didn't even consider I had something like A 10, AJ...cause that's exactly what I was representing.

maybe a lesson here is that I need to make sure my table image is tight to pull off a pretty light shove like this...I must have been viewed as a bit of a cannon (which is fine, even preferable) for this guy to snap call me here, but I shoulda been aware that I was imaged as a cannon and played accordingly.

awmllc2000 · Jul 14, 2013

HarryCaray said:
maybe a lesson here is that I need to make sure my table image is tight to pull off a pretty light shove like this...I must have been viewed as a bit of a cannon (which is fine, even preferable) for this guy to snap call me here, but I shoulda been aware that I was imaged as a cannon and played accordingly.

You have nailed every point I would want you to be aware of here. HC, your game is pretty strong from your analysis... Have you taken shots in big tournaments?

HarryCaray · Jul 14, 2013

awmllc2000 said:
You have nailed every point I would want you to be aware of here. HC, your game is pretty strong from your analysis... Have you taken shots in big tournaments?

Thanks, I consider my game to be quiet strong from the analytic/strategic side, but I still have a lot to learn. That's the beauty of this game, competition is always getting better and evolving, so while it's easy to learn it's impossible to master.

One problem I have is putting some of my analysis into practice. I have a tendency to make some mistakes and I know it when I'm doing it but I just do it anyway, caught up in the moment kinda thing. Like I'll shove and instantly be like "fuck that was not the right play"...haha. I mean, at least I can go back and analyze my HHs and recognize my own errors to try and fix my leaks, but being able to properly analyze a hand after the fact (and given unlimited time) is a helluva lot easier than doing it on the fly in the heat of battle.

I have never taken a shot in any larger tournaments, actually have never played a live tourney in my life. Have a lot of online SNG and MTT experience with reasonable success. Honestly I don't have the bankroll to take those kind of shots at this point in my life. Hopefully that will change some day but until then I am working hard to improve.

HarryCaray · Jul 14, 2013

Well, I have of course played SNGs or 2-3 table tournaments in live settings at house parties, etc...just never in a casino.

awmllc2000 · Jul 14, 2013

HarryCaray said:
Thanks, I consider my game to be quiet strong from the analytic/strategic side, but I still have a lot to learn. That's the beauty of this game, competition is always getting better and evolving, so while it's easy to learn it's impossible to master.

One problem I have is putting some of my analysis into practice. I have a tendency to make some mistakes and I know it when I'm doing it but I just do it anyway, caught up in the moment kinda thing. Like I'll shove and instantly be like "fuck that was not the right play"...haha. I mean, at least I can go back and analyze my HHs and recognize my own errors to try and fix my leaks, but being able to properly analyze a hand after the fact (and given unlimited time) is a helluva lot easier than doing it on the fly in the heat of battle.

I have never taken a shot in any larger tournaments, actually have never played a live tourney in my life. Have a lot of online SNG and MTT experience with reasonable success. Honestly I don't have the bankroll to take those kind of shots at this point in my life. Hopefully that will change some day but until then I am working hard to improve.

I'm not sure where you live... But I'm confident that you could find some tournaments that aren't a huge buyin.... Try a 50-100$ buyin. You will find its a lot easier to analyze your opponent live. Something that may help is making a point of analyzing every single move. Like ask yourself.. What am I trying to accomplish by sizing my raise here? Why this size vs. that size. Why would I call here vs. raising/ shoving? Make sure you can answer every question with absolute confidence before actually doing the action... Sounds very fundamental, but you will find it improves your game. I do this fundamental excessive before any actual move I make. When I first started improving my game online my mentor started having me play lower stake sit n gos in the dark... With my hole cards hidden... Had me play the situation rather than the cards. It sounds really dumb, but it improved my game tremendously. I'd be happy to help you out with any concerns you have concerning your game.

HarryCaray · Jul 15, 2013

Thanks for the advice and the offer. I live in Milwaukee.

I will be in Chicago July 23-August 2 for work, maybe we can catch up for dinner one night and shoot the shit.

I will probably look for a ~$100 tourney or two while I'm down there. Any suggestions on venue?

Porcupine · Jul 15, 2013

awmllc2000 said:
Something that may help is making a point of analyzing every single move. Like ask yourself.. What am I trying to accomplish by sizing my raise here? Why this size vs. that size. Why would I call here vs. raising/ shoving? Make sure you can answer every question with absolute confidence before actually doing the action... Sounds very fundamental, but you will find it improves your game. I do this fundamental excessive before any actual move I make. When I first started improving my game online my mentor started having me play lower stake sit n gos in the dark... With my hole cards hidden... Had me play the situation rather than the cards. It sounds really dumb, but it improved my game tremendously.

In addition to learning from others, I like the forum discussion as it gets me to really thinking about each move/street.
Thanks for the great discussion AWM and HC :toast:

Porcupine · Jul 15, 2013

HarryCaray said:
maybe a lesson here is that I need to make sure my table image is tight to pull off a pretty light shove like this...I must have been viewed as a bit of a cannon (which is fine, even preferable) for this guy to snap call me here, but I shoulda been aware that I was imaged as a cannon and played accordingly.

Good point HC. I agree with you and AWM's plan of shoving here. It is interesting/odd to me that he would lead into the preflop raiser there, then snap call when you come over the top. Like you said, he must have had you pegged as laggy as well.

newton0038 · Jul 28, 2013

Showdown:

Player 4 SHOWS

Player 9 SHOWS

Player 2	wins the side pot : $0
Player 2	wins the main pot : $5,170 I d hate to be at this table, seeing as PLAYER 2 won the pot without even playing! LOL. Was this Full Tilt with Lederer loose in the server room using the super account

Murphy8276 · Jul 28, 2013

awmllc2000 said:
I'm not sure where you live... But I'm confident that you could find some tournaments that aren't a huge buyin.... Try a 50-100$ buyin. You will find its a lot easier to analyze your opponent live. Something that may help is making a point of analyzing every single move. Like ask yourself.. What am I trying to accomplish by sizing my raise here? Why this size vs. that size. Why would I call here vs. raising/ shoving? Make sure you can answer every question with absolute confidence before actually doing the action... Sounds very fundamental, but you will find it improves your game. I do this fundamental excessive before any actual move I make. When I first started improving my game online my mentor started having me play lower stake sit n gos in the dark... With my hole cards hidden... Had me play the situation rather than the cards. It sounds really dumb, but it improved my game tremendously. I'd be happy to help you out with any concerns you have concerning your game.

good advice awm. Live play is where it is at when doing analyzing of the player.. online its a computer and very hard to tell any betting patterns other than fast clicks and time wasters.

-murph

HarryCaray · Aug 4, 2013

newton0038 said:
Showdown:

Player 4 SHOWS

Player 9 SHOWS

Player 2 wins the side pot : $0
Player 2 wins the main pot : $5,170

I d hate to be at this table, seeing as PLAYER 2 won the pot without even playing! LOL. Was this Full Tilt with Lederer loose in the server room using the super account

Haha must have been a hand converter error

Donked into on flop; how to handle this

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